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Prolijo,

I have every right to complain. I also have every right to refuse to play bad music. Prostitutes have every right to say 'no' to a fat ugly smelly old fart too. I played more crap songs in my 'career' than I would care to listen to again for twice the money. I needed the money at the time and didn't have any other option. I still had a right not to like it.

I have no idea what kind of work you do, but I rather doubt you take orders unquestioningly and always like it and never complain. I have never met anybody who doesn't complain about work, or their marriage, or their K*ds. If you are the exception, you are the first I have met.

Being the one who pays might make you 'boss' but it doesn't make your feces smell like honeysuckle.

_________________
"The only normal people are those you don't know very well." Joe Ancis

I think this is the first time... Honeysuckle has been used in while
Makes me think of the Willie Nelson movie Honeysuckle Rose
Not true blues...
Dianne Canon is hot back then
Now back to the job you hate.... BTW I do not have one

Of course, you (or I or anybody else) always have a "right" to complain. I NEVER said you didn't. Your employers also happen to have the the "right" not to listen to you if they don't want to. And your audience has the "right" not to come see you, pay cover, buy tickets or drinks or whatever else becomes the source of the funds to pay you. You have the "right" to refuse to play bad music. Again, I NEVER said you didn't. But your employers and/or audience also have the "right" not to pay you anything if you don't play what they want to hear. You also have the "right" not to like what you do for work. Again, I NEVER said otherwise. But you also have the right to quit, seek other work, or do no work at all. And as for prostitutes, they have the "right" to say 'no' to a fat ugly smelly old fart. I NEVER said they didn't either. But then they don't have a "right" to expect that fat ugly smelly old fart to fork over so much money to them just for looking pretty. What I DID say was "you're not really in much of a position to complain about it" which is very different. So, the issue is more one of validity or of whether you can expect anyone to listen or care, rather than of your basic rights.

My point is simply that if one agrees to take a job then they have to be prepared to take whatever is normally expected to come with it. And, when it comes to playing music for money, that normally means playing what the audience wants to hear, not just what you want to play. If the two are the same, then thats great. But if sometimes they aren't then you should either not necessarily expect to get paid to play "your" music or find some other way to make a living. There are always choices.

You said "I needed the money at the time and didn't have any other option." but there are always other options. You could always have taken some other job. Maybe the only other ones you were qualified for and/or were available at the time didn't pay as much, but if playing "crap songs" was really so horrible you could always have done something else. The real truth probably was that as much as you may have disliked having to play what you did, it must have paid better than the alternatives and/or the alternatives were probably even more distasteful to have to do (I don't know, bussing tables, cleaning toilets, servicing chickenhawks, panhandling or busking on the streets, or even living on welfare). Besides, what would you have done if you didn't even know how to play? Answer: You probably would have been even worse off. So complain if you want to, but you really shouldn't expect a lot of sympathy.

Finally, you questioned what I do myself. That is a valid question. I'm fortunate enough to work in an area that I generally enjoy, but even then there are times when some of my work is rather mundane and boring. Do I take orders unquestioningly? I may question how to better understand what I'm expected to do or even briefly WHY I have to do it or do it that way if they don't seem to make any sense. But ultimately if that is what my employer wants me to do (and it is not something illegal, unethical or outside the scope of my normally expected duties) I do whatever I'm paid to do whether I think it makes the most sense or is the wisest course for my employer or not. I feel as long as I have voiced my concerns and/or provided my professional advice (which are really both rather different from "complaining" any way), then I've done my duty to my employer but ultimately THEY are the boss because THEY are paying the bills. Was I always so patient and compliant? Not really, I used to have a lot less tolerance for what I saw as the stupidity of others but I have gotten a lot more philosophical about such things in my "old age" and I've found I'm a lot happier for it than I was when I was always butting my head against the wall. Do I still sometimes complain to others about work, marriage or K*ds. Well, I've intentionally avoided the latter two just so I WOULDN'T have anything to complain about there. I'll sometimes briefly complain (to no one really) about little things like we all do (such as when cars in front of me take "forever" to start moving after a traffic light turns green and it changes back before I can get through ), but I'm really not that serious about complaining about things that I can't really change or control and I certainly no longer let such things stress me out. I always try to live the Serenity Prayer and that has served me well. And, as for work, while I sometimes may grouse a little, or get a little stressed out or fatigued by it, that is about as far as it goes, because ultimately I can appreciate how comparatively very lucky I am even to be able to do the things I do and get paid relatively well for it, ESPECIALLY after having traveled so much in 3rd world countries throughout Central America, the Caribbean (especially Haiti) and the Far East wher most people are nowhere near that fortunate.

Funny how a drunken post has turned into a pissing contest. I said as much in 1 sentence as some people say in 100. Reminds me of a Doris Day song . Que Sera Sera . The winner is ? And in the big picture of things does any of this discussion really matter ? A pissing contest over a drunken post WOW

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Always nice to wake up and see what will happen today

I don't know a lot of people who are passionate about Brother Prolijo's line of work whereas they most definitely are about Brother Bilko's, to the point where they will work on the Cadillac assembly line or much, much worse for 8 hours so they can display their talent and passion in a no-name dive for 4...and get by on 4 hours sleep per night for months or years on end for chump change. I've never asked any hookers about how they feel about their work, and wouldn't trust the answer anyway.

_________________
"A man accustomed to hear only the echo of his own sentiments, soon bars all the common avenues of delight, and has no part in the general gratification of mankind"--Dr. Johnson
"Amen, brother"-ED

Prolijo,

I don't have your patience, so I won't do a point by point rebuttal. But feel I have a much better 'position' to talk than some. Music, even when badly played, is still 'art.' Music is not simply an economic transaction. If that's all there is to it, then Britney Spears is a much better 'musician' than Johan Sebastian Bach ever was.

As far as my having to work as a musician, it's the same argument I hear about girls becoming prostitutes. True, I could have become a beggar or a burglar. Back in 1980 when I was looking for work as a non-musician, I was totally willing to take a minimum wage job, but could not find one. You can choose not to believe that if you like.

Beyond that, I spent at least 10 years playing in bars, and believe it or not, playing what the obnoxious drunks were shouting wasn't always the key to keeping the crowd entertained and keeping the cash register ringing for the jefe. Playing to the lowest common denominator isn't necessarily the road to riches.

I spent 10 plus years doing whatever it took (trying) to keep from getting fired. My former 'trade' has been replaced almost entirely by DJs who can be totally tone deaf and make a living. From an economic standpoint, a DJ is much more efficient than a bunch of guys who spent years learning to play.

To some people, music is a commodity and nothing more. Others care about it and think it has value beyond what it earns at the till. I am in the latter category. Sue me if I play too long...

_________________
"The only normal people are those you don't know very well." Joe Ancis

You seem to be drawing universal conclusions based on one guy that you know, hardly the way I`d approach the subject... A lot of musicians love money and are willing to adapt to get it, even if the old bar crowds call them "sell outs." Many big name bands are businesses and follow shrewd business models, doing what they need to do to appeal to teenybopper markets, the crowd that historically buys the most music. The whole "starving artist" phenomenon may have a counter culture appeal to it while preserving some self-esteem in the face of unrealized goals, but many of the same, truth be known, would surely prefer to experience fortune and fame, or at least have rent money...

I may have this wrong but the phenomenon Brother Express321 is talking about became much more prevalent when the producers and other more money-oriented types retook pop music from the artists. One of the great sometimes overlooked things the Beatles did was wresting such control unto themselves and the Rolling Stones whatever else you might think of them were always a self-controlling self-directing blues-based band. The Grateful Dead never trimmed their sails for any "trend of the day". Jimi Hendrix was not exactly brought to heel.The Beach Boys later always did it their way. And so it goes with all those that truly created. It was the lesser-talented 2nd-tier and 2nd and later generations desperate for success in and of itself that "sold out" and how much of their stuff will live for the ages? On the MOBO side of the house there was primarily Motown (a top-down controlled group if there ever was one) but also all the great music Curtis Mayfield, Willie Dixon, and the Memphis crowd (Stax/Volt and Hi Records) and of course Atlantic Records put out--maybe producer-shaped but not essentially changing the artists to fit a preconceived "sound"--production in its best sense. The same is true in C & W music though to a lesser extent--Nashville had much more a death grip on what got cut and played but the whole "Outlaw Country" movement lives to this day.
Oh and BTW the "big name bands" (the arena rock crowd) mostly were put together by outsiders (agents and such) specifically to appeal to a demographic--amazing numbers of them can't hardly play a lick and need studio musicians to cut their records for them, the bands subsequently learning the licks by rote by watching the true artists play their stuff. This isn't universally true--others are mere case studies in slick, cynical commercialism but they at least could play (Fleetwood Mac, anyone?).

_________________
"A man accustomed to hear only the echo of his own sentiments, soon bars all the common avenues of delight, and has no part in the general gratification of mankind"--Dr. Johnson
"Amen, brother"-ED

Yes, Brother Srilm, as did their musical heart and soul, Smokey Robinson--and he was married to Berry Gordy's sister. I think it was the midnight move to Hollywood that was the final crusher.
BTW, it took a cheesy-ass outfit like Malaco Records in Mississippi to keep the soul flame burning. Their new 6-CD box The Last Soul Company: Malaco: a 30-year Retrospective collects the best and obscurities. A must for the True Believer. Available lightly used on Amazon.com for about $40.

_________________
"A man accustomed to hear only the echo of his own sentiments, soon bars all the common avenues of delight, and has no part in the general gratification of mankind"--Dr. Johnson
"Amen, brother"-ED

That is because as a musician you want to share YOUR soul...and you want the audience to come hear you play what you want to play.

The dream is to be playing your own music and that people will come from miles around to hear you play and to thin that you are great...no musician dreams about playing what they consider "hacky" music...

Being a musician is not about making a buck..of course when you are young you daydream about being like Megadeth(if you are a metal guy like me) and getting rich by playing what you love,but when you fail at that and you end up in bars just trying to catch a tiny portion of that dream to just TRY to hang on to that dream a little longer,it is a drag to hear everyone asking if you know "Enter Sandman"....(which is the Mustang Sally of Metallica songs.)

Yes,I am a frustrated musician myself.And you don't want it to be a job like any other..you want it to be everything you dream about every since you first heard "Jukebox hero" as a Ch*ld on the radio...You really can't try to apply logic/reason to it...it is a dream,not the daily grind.

Mustang Sally and Enter sandman just remind you of the futility of the industry..an industry where Britney Spears makes millions and your random genius musician has to keep a job in construction to pay the bills.

You want the audience to love it,but you want them to love what you offer,because that is reaffirming that other people "get" what you have to offer.

I guess a good way to look at it is like Bilko said...art...an artist creates the art,then hopes it will sell...because if it sells well,it seems to reaffirm that his art is beautiful to others..but there are still artists that sit on the side of the road and draw caricatures of tourists for $5 a pop just to make a living.Not very satisfying though.

Sounds good, makes sense that, when called on your method, to increase your numbers from one to "hundreds." Don`t worry though, it`s the internet and no one will know any difference....




This is just romantic horseshit, like 90% of the musicians in a given town are homeless... Even if this be so the same would rather be paid well for their art. Others would like to give up their day job.

Decent analysis JazzboCr. Producers, promoters, etc. are without a doubt huge factors. However I`d say we deceive ourselves if we think bands like the Stones, Beatles, and some others who actually or seemingly avoided "selling out" at times aren`t also in the game for the money. Concepts such as working for the love of the music, to share one`s soul, and to make big bucks don`t have to be mutally exclusive.. And, even if it starts out as just for fun and self-expression, new motives can be added in a hurry once serious money and all it buys are tasted. Not to mention that even the "starving artists" often have their tip jar out, so it`s difficult to make the sweeping exclusions of financial motivations, that some on this thread seem to want to do....

There is a dramatic difference between"...would rather be paid well for their art..." and "would bend their talents to the prevailing mode so as to be paid well." There is one nexus between hookers and musicians--luck plays such a tremendous part in whether one gets picked for the night/ for stardom. That's the only tangential area I can see.
Brother Express321--Brother Bilko has presented credentials as a player, and Brother Srilm and I have shown to be informed listeners. What, pray tell, are yours?

_________________
"A man accustomed to hear only the echo of his own sentiments, soon bars all the common avenues of delight, and has no part in the general gratification of mankind"--Dr. Johnson
"Amen, brother"-ED

And who is disagreeing with that? You have set up a straw man argument for yourself and knocked it down, but it has nothing to do with the heart of my objection. That`s the most common manuever in internet debate... I challenged all the personal experience, "I know 100s musicians and their motives are this, that, etc." (was initially just one) assertions, while all but completely excluding financial motivations. May work around a bar room table after several beers but I couldn`t resist calling the b.s. here...




Thanks for sharing your opinion. It would be fair to say as well that such an outlook could make a rather soothing balm for one who has failed. "Well, I`m just unlucky. The system is rigged. They just don`t know good art." Maybe, maybe not in some cases...



Okay, so playing the guitar in a bar band or knowing who Barry Gordy is pulls rank here and allows one to assert what they like without challenge? I find statements like the ones below, that come absent any kind of proof plenty questionable and have stated why, in that the statements are far too sweeping and simplistic and reflective of "talking out of one`s ass," a phenomenon most common on monger boards. But such observations and analysis are the only "credentials" I really need, along with the fact that I have a valid account here...

Why does Jim Ed Brown always sing Pop a Top .

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Always nice to wake up and see what will happen today