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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:53 am 
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Point of Clarification...... By letting a chica know early on,that I am not interested in paying cien, the amount of time SHE CHOOSES to spend with me,is on HER. One thing that bothers me in these situations is when a guy sits and "plays" with a chica who doesn't draw that much action, for 2 hours with NO INTENTION of letting her make some money. That isn't fair to the chica who is "working". I tell newer guys that it's OK to spend a lot of time at the DR,go out to dinner,or whatever you want to do,so long as you let the chica know that she isn't wasting her time,and she will be making money. (negotiate now so there aren't any misunderstandings) I like TMan's use of the expression "situational ethics". If a chica acts properly given the circumstances,then she deserves to be treated with respect. If she acts poorly,then she deserves to be DUMPED.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:49 am 
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Prolijo wrote:
Zippy wrote:
how they perform can be like night & day depending on their respect they have for you as a good guy
You're still not hearing what I'm saying. What you just said is ABSOLUTELY true. But what I just said is a girl that you decide isn't going to be worth the deal you just made and therefore decide to back out on isn't going to be performing with you ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. She's not going to be performing for you AT ALL both now and most likely never in the future. And even if she did, in cases like these, you backed out because you felt you had good reason to think she WASN"T GOING TO perform well ANYWAY even BEFORE you backed out on her. Finally while I don't think just sneaking away and leaving her hanging at the bar is a noble way to deal with this situation either, how does it build respect for you if you treat her overly extravagantly by tico standards? Couldn't you argue that will just make her see you as a sap that can easily be taken advantage, if you ever did try to make a deal with her in the future? "I'll act all hot and interested and agree to 25K again and then pull my pouting act and hope he just gives me a lot of walking money again." Isn't it best to just deal with this honestly and respectfully, but FIRMLY by saying something like "I'm sorry, but I think I've just made a mistake and have changed my mind and thought it better we both just forgot about this before we both got too far into it. Thanks anyway" or even like Bob suggested "You know on further reflection I don't think this was such a good idea after all, let me buy you a drink for all your troubles and lets just leave it at that." (assuming she hasn't already been hitting you up for top-shelf premium drinks all evening).

I'm sorry. I can appreciate different approaches or baiting one's hook differently, but I can't appreciate what I consider to be illogical arguments. I can't appreciate the point of trying to impress a chica with your honor when she is ALREADY showing a clear lack of respect for you. Feigning interest in you is expected and understandable but dropping that act the second she thinks she has her hooks set into you and before even delivers what you thought you'd be getting is not and shows a clear disrespect of us as gringos. Bending over backwards to be honorable to such a chica is like throwing gasoline on the flames. It doesn't breed respect. It just further erodes it. And in any event it is completely pointless since, if you were smart, you'd be steering well clear of those types.

As for the larger audience of chicas, How is this any different then when a chica tells all her friends that we're cheapskates because we don't want to pay cien or otherwise fail to agree to something that they feel they're entitled to? They're going to talk and say whatever they want. If a chica asks you about it you can explain it to her from your side and let that be a lesson to them. If they treat us right, we can be the nicest guys in the world. If they treat us like saps, they shouldn't count on anything. Respect has to go both ways. If she doesn't mention what she heard, you can still show what sort of man you really are by your actions towards her. The better chicas are going to be able to judge for themselves what type of guy you are when you spend a little time with them.

I can appreciate that different guys have different compensation levels that they feel is appropriate in different situations. But I also think there is a reasonable range and that some amounts are clearly excessive (In much the same way that some vets manage to pay $40 while others pay $60 but nearly all vets agree that cien is too much). I can appreciate showing some respect for women that though they're basically hookers are still human beings too. But I also think there comes a point where some of them lose their claim to respectability, such as when we catch them trying to scam us with outright lies in a RFM (or when they act like our novias right up to the second they think they have us hooked for our dough). I think for many of the guys around here their wimpy preconditioning by gringas rules the day and think that being respectful means being overly deferential and subservient. These aren't gringas. What LATINAS respect most, and many gringas secretly too, is a guy that they CAN'T wrap around their finger, though they'll still try. A guy who is strong and can take charge. One can be respectful yet also still be firm. Don't be a sucker and don't put up with any shit.

BTW, where the Phuck is Tim Bones when you need him? C'mon, Tim, please chime in here.


I have not read enough of this thread to know where it's going but I find Prolijo's thoughts, thought provoking. He's making a logical argument which makes a lot of sense to me and probably 99% of the men that follow it. Why? Because we are logical. Woman as we know are not. However, are there business decisions generally guided by logic? I think it's more instinct. Instinctively if you offer a girl a percentage of your total offer to go away and she knows that's going to happen a percentage of the time, isn't she going to ask for a higher amount in order to increase the amount you "settle" with her for? I suppose she would if she found a pattern there. There certainly are not enough situations like this for us to draw any conclusions on as how chicas would act if this sort of tipping or minimum payment were the norm. But we tend to believe, and I think rightfully so, that certain logics follow in a drawnout number of these situations. But the truth is that we do not know what these chicas would do or how they would act because we cannot project their behavior to follow logical patterns. Or, in the case of money and business, can we regardless of their typical emotional behavior as woman?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:49 am 
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dupe


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:02 pm 
You are all diving in way to deep making a mountain out of a molehill.
The first fundamental tenet you all are ignoring: These girls are saleswomen.

Sales guys and gals know that you do not close every sale, the ones that you do close are the economic surplus to pay for the sales prospecting that you do not close. Bilko and you all do not owe her anything for her time, other than drinks and curteous company like you would do back in the states. She has already been paid for her time from the 100 dollars too much she got paid by some sucker the night before. It really is that simple. Akhums razor applies here.
Someone have the correct spelling on that?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:25 pm 
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Occam's razor.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:35 pm 
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Vegas Bob wrote:
Point of Clarification...... By letting a chica know early on,that I am not interested in paying cien, the amount of time SHE CHOOSES to spend with me,is on HER. One thing that bothers me in these situations is when a guy sits and "plays" with a chica who doesn't draw that much action, for 2 hours with NO INTENTION of letting her make some money. That isn't fair to the chica who is "working". ...I like TMan's use of the expression "situational ethics". If a chica acts properly given the circumstances,then she deserves to be treated with respect. If she acts poorly,then she deserves to be DUMPED.
See, VB, we aren't so far apart I agree with you that this is an important distinction. BTW, do you think a sudden personality transformation immediately after you set a price is acting properly? We've all seen that happen.

Bilko, I agree that this is all largely semantics and guys who think they're talking about the same thing and disagreeing but really aren't. Ultimately it seems you and I agree on far more than we disagree. I can even appreciate your real motive for offering the 5K option as idle curiousity. The only difference on my part would have been that my own curiousity wouldn't have been worth 5K to me. Or at least, I think the outcome at 5K probably wasn't that hard to predict and a smaller more borderline amount would have been more telling (e.g., would she still have been willing to walk away from your 25K for 3K or even just 2K?)

Guiness, I don't think your analogy was that cheesy but you left out some important differences. One normally doesn't bother interviewing someone unless they've looked over their resume carefully and think they might be a fit. If the interview doesn't look promising it is usually cut fairly short. The pay rate is usually posted with the job listing or if it isn't both sides usually have at least a pretty good idea of what the job is worth and any difference is within a reasonable range of negotiation. Some guys will waste the time of chicas they really aren't that interested in or at least drag out the "interview". Also, we ALL know many chicas have an unrealistic idea of what salary they should get.

I strongly agree with VB, it behooves us if we are to enter into an "interview" to clarify what a reasonable ballpark rate might be (or at least eliminate any misconceptions that are totally out of the ball park) given what we know some chicas expect. Of course the final and more detailed negotiations can still wait until the end when we know with greater certainty that we want to hire the chica.

For those that prefer the salesman analogy. A good salesman knows how to qualify their prospects before entering into any lengthy pitch in order to maximize his successful closes. He also knows how to cut his losses. When you go to a car lot do you tell the salesman you're ready to buy if you aren't? Far from it. We don't want to subjected to the sales pitch any more than the salesman wants to waste his time. Yet, most of us thoroughly enjoy the sales pitch part of the chica's job. Even when we're only mildly interested, some of us feign more interest than we really have. And that makes the chicas job more difficult even if they were an effective and discerning salesperson, which many are not.

Off subject but related, when I get telemarketing calls I sometimes feign interest and tell them to hold the line while I get a pencil to write it all down and then I leave the phone on hold for a long time. I have no idea how long they wait before they give up, but I figure every second they wait on me is time they waste that could have been used to call someone else. Do I owe them anything for it or feel guilty? Hell no! I figure they deserve anything they get for bothering people at home.

Last comment is for Muffdiver. C'mon now. You couldn't figure out what he drinks? Didn't you notice his handle?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:43 am 
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Speaking of telemarketers, try this...

http://www.consumerist.com/consumer/tom ... 206986.php

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:53 pm 
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Prolijo,

All good, articulate points. I simplified things, but you get the point. I guess the final point I was attempting to make is the girl does not deserve anything for her time when she first sits down. This could change, but there’s so many variables that come into play after this that it ultimately relies on how the chica handles herself and what type of guy you are. Some guys will never give a chica a dime unless it results in sex. Some will throw their money around like they’re Trump. To tell someone how to act is pointless because what is in your nature….well, just is. And you will act accordingly. So in the end everyone will do what they want anyway so lets keep the flame wars to a minimum and make the valuable facts and helpful information more frequent. Offer an opinion and move on, and accept that not everyone will agree.

Now that I feel like a hypocrite for wasting everyone’s time…again…how bout discussing what really matters, hot ticas that provide good service for a good rate. Do they still exist?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:05 am 
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One final late night point on this long debate on a short subject. :wink:

We talk about these girls being "sales ladies", pros, semi pros, GFE...I mean it seems we're almost trying to make a science out of this hobby...or perhaps even "unionize" by trying to control prices, experiences, etc. When I get out and about for sexual adventure, for me it is more about FANTASY...escape...relaxation...etc. I feel like sometimes this board works overtime to lessen the mystery or adventure of this hobby...or take away spontaneity...or even create unrealistic expectations. For most of us this is just a game...though I know many are hoping to find real love and affection at the Delrey, Key Largo, et al. If you are satisfied with fantasy...then you WILL find love and affection there...at least for an hour or a night.

IN summary, alot of all this is being taken too seriously. At the end of the day, I dont really care what others pay or dont pay. Everybody "hunts" a little differently...and as long as someone else isnt getting hurt, wether its the chicas or fellow guys on this board...why should us guys give a f...?

Tman...over and out. 8)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:55 am 
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Tman,

Excellent points & in may ways reading this board has taken the fun out of the mystery of the whole ordeal for me anyway. Sometimes ignorance is BLISS :) !

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:07 pm 
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Prolijo wrote:
Off subject but related, when I get telemarketing calls I sometimes feign interest and tell them to hold the line while I get a pencil to write it all down and then I leave the phone on hold for a long time. I have no idea how long they wait before they give up, but I figure every second they wait on me is time they waste that could have been used to call someone else. Do I owe them anything for it or feel guilty? Hell no! I figure they deserve anything they get for bothering people at home.



I did that on a number of occasions and always had a good laugh until one day when I came back and picked up the phone I heard a supervisor berating the girl I had left hanging while I went "to answer the door".She was really reaming this girl out for being so dumb as to wait for me to return rather than hanging up and taking another call.

It made me think that this girl might be a poor working single mom trying to earn a living. I might not like what her job is but I admire her work ethic. That experience made me feel very guilty and I never wasted a telemarketers time again.

Naturally everyones MMV

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:26 pm 
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ID,
Now we're really going off topic here, but I've thought of that angle too and decided that excuse doesn't fly. Here is my more complete thinking on this approach.

My goal is to exactly to make the job more undesireable. If wasting time waiting on me to return to the phone is what does that, great. If it gets the phone operator in trouble, I really don't have any problem with that either. I don't care how poor and needy she is. That's her problem not mine. My problem is I don't want to be disturbed while I'm relaxing at home by unsolicited calls. This isn't a welfare program. I'd sooner pay her money not to call me at all. Besides, she chose that line of work knowing full well that people would often curse her out, blow whistles in her ear, etc. and sometimes leave her hanging. I didn't choose to receive their calls. If we make the job unbearable enough, maybe fewer people will want to take it in the first place or maybe they'll have to pay people more to accept the job instead of berating the people they can get,. And that wouldn't be such a bad thing for that single mom. Anyway, thats my spin on it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:45 pm 
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Prolijo wrote:
I don't care how poor and needy she is. That's her problem not mine.


Congratulations Pro.

I nominate you for the 2007 CRT Humanitarian Of The Year Award.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:10 am 
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Hey, I know it may sound harsh to you but don't make it sound like I don't have any compassion for the poor. If you have so much compassion for the poor and needy and really want to do something about it, give to a relief organization. That's what I do to the tune of $150 per month. What I don't do is pay or in any other way encourage the poor to try and earn money in socially undesireable ways particularly ways that negatively impact back on me directly. Then it IS a problem for me.

I think I can speak knowledgeably on the subject of the working poor and how to make an honest living. In 2004, I spent 7 months traveling with mexican migrant laborers (in that case, carnival workers and I was front office) and saw with my own eyes how hard and long they worked at real honest labor for BELOW minimum wage (seasonal employment is exempt from most minimum wage laws). The work involved being out in the hot sun and sometimes pouring rain, often doing hard physical dangerous work assembling and disassembling rides long into the night (16 hour days were not uncommon) not like sitting in some comfortable room somewhere and occasionally having to listen to some disgruntled person they bothered. Incidentally, it should also be noted that those guys worked much harder than many of the gringo bums who were also in the group. And, while making a fraction per hour of what these telemarketers make, they still managed to scrimp and save and send home some money to their families in a country where people don't even have those opportunities. So don't tell me about the working poor. I have nothing but respect for those guys. Telemarketers are a whole 'nother story.

All I'm saying is there are lots of poor people who somehow manage to survive in life without making themselves a pain in the ass to other people. Or if they do choose that route because it pays a little more they just better understand that the trade-off that goes with that is having to expect some people will be just as much of a pain back at them. This isn't like our walking into a showroom or store, looking to be sold something We're just trying to go about our own business and have done nothing to invite these interruptions. How are telemarketers any different really from those beggars in the Gulch that follow us around? Some are outright trying to scam as, some are trying to sell us something but of dubious value and all of their advances are unwanted and hard to avoid. The only reason we wouldn't try a similar approach with the street beggar is because they are right there in our face and it is not quite so easy to just walk away from the phone.

BTW, another thing I do sometimes is ask them for their telephone number. If they know how to react to such a request at all they usually just give me their employers toll-free number. I then tell them "No, No, I meant your personal home number so I can call them back on some night while they're trying to sit down for dinner." I don't know if they get the analogy I'm trying to draw or whether they just think I'm some asshole and frankly I don't much care. It gives me some satisfaction back either way. I don't expect to start a movement or to change many of their hearts and minds any more than I expect our preaching "No Cien" around here will change the negotiating environment at the BM. Maybe I'm only just adding one more straw on the back of one or 2 of them, but you never know which one will be the last straw for that one person to make them think "Gee, maybe there are better more honest ways to make a living" or "Gee, maybe I deserve to be paid even more money for having to put up with all this shit".


Last edited by Prolijo on Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:15 am 
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Irish Drifter wrote:
Prolijo wrote:
I don't care how poor and needy she is. That's her problem not mine.


Congratulations Pro.

I nominate you for the 2007 CRT Humanitarian Of The Year Award.


Okay, if not that, then how about the "2007 CRT Long-winded, Much Ado About Nothing" award? :P :wink:

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