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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:57 pm 
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Please read the following and tell me if this fairly describes the profile and attitudes of a fair number of us on this board (not exempting myself):

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Costa Rica is one of the many economically underdeveloped countries on the itinerary of the kind of sex tourist who considers himself to be an 'average', 'regular' guy who enjoys 'the company' of women and likes to visit brothels, strip clubs, and go-go bars.

All of the 'regular guys' we met were American, and the fact that bars, clubs and brothels in San Jose advertise the presence of English speaking staff and provide details of shows, menus, cocktail lists etc. in English but not in, say, German or Italian, suggests that the organized sex industry caters largely to North Americans.

The sex tourists we met in San Jose were bachelors, divorcees or widowers aged between 45 and 70 (it may be that during the high season in Jose, the age profile is younger), they were comfortably off but not wealthy by US standards and they make between two and five trips a year either to Costa Rica or to other favorite American sex tourist destinations such as the Dominican Republic, Brazil and Mexico.

The attitudes of these men towards gender and sexuality, as well as attitudes towards Costa Rica, were essentially the same as those of the North American retirees described above (who had, of course, practiced sex tourism prior to moving to Costa Rica on a permanent basis).

They told us that Tican women 'love sex', that Costa Rican attitudes towards sex are 'different' and more 'natural', that as a consequence prostitution is not frowned upon in Costa Rica. They told us that Costa Rican women are not like American women - they don't judge a man by his age or appearance, that Tican women are 'really sincere and friendly'.

They also believed that Tican men (unlike themselves) are macho and that women therefore prefer American men who are true 'gentlemen' and treat them well. It is this and not the economic situation in which most Costa Rican women find themselves which explains the large numbers of Tican women seeking Western husbands.

It may be that only a 'hard core' of 'regular guy' sex tourists travel to Costa Rica in low season but it certainly seemed, even more than in Thailand or Cuba, that such sex tourists feel themselves to be part of a large and loosely co-ordinated 'Boy's Club'. A small fraternity of middle aged and elderly American men gather in a specific bar at 'happy hour', a Tican girl at their side while they watch the ball game on cable TV or flick through the 'defense' magazines (many of them are military or ex-military men).

They can buy souvenir baseball caps and T-shirts to remind them of evenings spent this way and the owner invites them to bring along their own state flag to hang in the bar next time they come to San Jose. Later on, they can go to another bar where they will see the same faces night after night, the other 'guys' out to get laid, compatriots with whom to laugh and boast about their 'sexploits'.

Although such men enjoy a visit to brothels and strip joints, it is highly unlikely that they go to the illegal brothels which cater to local demand. Indeed, the guru and epitome of 'regular guy' sex tourists, Bruce Cassirer, explicitly warns them not to stray too far from bars and massage parlours that cater to tourists: 'Watch out... it can get a little seedy if you wander too far away from the park' (Cassirer, 1992:77).



The above was part of an academic paper prepared in 1995 by two female authors in the UK as background documentation for the World Congress Against the Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Ch*ldren. Another member recently posted a link to this article, but perhaps because of the way he presented it, everyone jumped all over him, and it appears the thread has already been deleted.

As someone who bothered to read the article, I have to commend the authors for the depth and extent of the research that went into it. Even ten years later, some of what they say appears to still be observably true.

The problem I have with it, however, is that - beyond the obvious anti-sex trade bias and patronizing tone of much of it - like most similar tomes, it attempts to raise public ire and attract attention by drawing a direct link between an activity that is completely legal in the country practiced (adult prostitution), with one (Ch*ld prostitution) which we all universally condemn and I don't think in any instance would knowingly participate in.

I read a similar article recently in the Los Angeles Times concerning a location on the central Brazilian coast frequented mainly by Europeans. Despite the attention grabbing "Ch*ld prostitution" headline, little if any substantive evidence was provided in the article that such a practice was common or widespread.

Does Ch*ld prostitution exist? Unfortunately, yes, of course, but probably no more so in Costa Rica than anywhere else, including here. And definitely not to the degree the morality police would like the public to believe.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:10 am 
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I for one, do not gather with my buddies and read "Defense magazines".
Nor do I haul my state flag into a bar. I have not even seen state flags.
I have seen overweight obnoxious English speaking women around the area however.

Are the British ladies crazy?

The study is inaccurate, outdated and biased to say the least.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:43 am 
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I posted the article. Before I even knew about this board I read the paper maybe 4 times I guess. Never being there myself, this was my first "impression" of CR. Now, after putting in my time reading, I feel even more excited to arrive. I simply wanted opinions to the paper as I didnt know any better.
I apologize if that rubbed anyone the wrong way.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:08 am 
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It suprises me that this article was written in the UK, it is the same drivel that I expect to find in the US press. How can these authors claim any "academic rigor" when they equate adult prostitution with Ch*ld prostitution with absolutely no reason to do so? How and why do these writers do this? Their writings are a product of their feelings against prostitution and inter-generational sex (a guy 60 yoa with a woman of 25, for example), nothing more or less. One of their basic assumptions is that an older, richer guy being with a much younger woman is an expression of some kind of pathological psychological condition in the older guy (or in normal-speak, that he is a worthless piece of shit). Instead of cloaking their writings as a being against Ch*ld prostitution (which we are all against), they should simply write about their feelings against prostitution or against older guys being with younger women. Then other people could write about their feelings for prostitution, or for sexuality in general, even for older guys. In the US, sexuality for older people is considered the equivalent of your dog humping his favorite cushion, at best an eccentricity to be tolerated. These bullshit papers piss me off!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:03 pm 
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I read the article as well, and it was just not very good. I don't know where the authors were from, but someone needs to teach them a little lesson in cultural relativism. Everything they 'observe' is thoroughly colored by their own cultural/sexual/moralistic bias.

They insist again and again that the idea that sexual mores are different in CR is a myth, yet when they actually speak to costa rican woman who agree that 'things are different' in CR, they insist that it is a delusion brought on by the horrors of crushing poverty.

Beyond that, the assumption made by so many of these 'researchers' and 'reporters' that 'sex tourist' = 'Ch*ld molester' just pisses me off.

What happens between me and another consenting adult is my own business, and I happen to enjoy spending time in a country that agrees with me about that.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:30 pm 
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Well its typical to assume that Ch*ld molestation is when an adult and a girl below 18 have sexual relations. The problem is that some cultures (especially latino) have no cualms about the age different. Some girls get married when they are 14 to a man probably in his 30's. This is seen as okay.

The problem is that other cultures find this so alien that they dont want to accept the fact that there are cultures in the world who dont share their same sexual beliefs.

Personally I have no interest in being with a woman that is younger than 20. But ill be honest for all i know i could have been with a 16 year old who lied about being 18. I dont check their Id's and i can name a few of my cousins who are 13 and look like an 18 year old. Luckly the mayority of the places i stay at check ID's. But still could there be a chance that these girls might have fake ID's?

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 Post subject: regarding that article
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:44 pm 
gentlemen;


the problem does exists... but since the activties of mongering and cp are always mentioned in the same breath it's best just never to discuss this on these boards..

I have read articles where it starts out with adult prostitution and by the end of the article it morphes into C.P.... that;s just the nature of people regarding this type of activity.

a good friend of mine has 4 tittie joints in florida and he made a statement to me that there always people that go to bed each night angry with the idea that some people are out in the world actuallly having a good time. ..

although the report is done well... it still has that patronizing type of tone.. that what we do is "bad" etc.. exploit women... give me a phucking break....

I'm thinking last week I went by my favorite place and went in with michelle.. she gave me a wondeful massage and a incredible happy ending... that i gave her a nice propina... I even gave her a little massage..... when I left I kissed her on the cheek and said hasta luego

am I exploiting this person??????

pura vida

danielson


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:02 pm 
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I agree completely with furryman. I had read that particular "study" before, so it was nothing new to me. I understand the newbie was just trying to get some feedback on something he had found, but what HE did not understand is that this is a touchy subject not because the study has any merit but because it is just another example of how we are so often unfairly tainted and associated with the despicable acts of a few sick individuals by other parties with a predisposed moral judgement against what we do.

The admins were correct in deleting it as leaving it up was truly pointless a) because it gives the study more credence than it deserves and b) because any reaction here is both predictable(of course we abhor Ch*ld exploitation and of course that has nothing to do with what we do) and unlikely to affect any opinions that are already held on this subject by our members. I'm not sure why after seeing it deleted, GetRhythm thought it should be brought up again, but as long as this thread is still up I'll add my own 2 cents.

As has been pointed out already this is an old study dating back to 1995. If anything CR has grown more as a sexual tourism market since that time, however at the same time there has been increasingly (and well deserved) heat brought down on international sex tourists in CR and other markets. Regardless of the age of consent or local social/sexual mores, it is illegal by US law for gringos to engage in sex with anyone under 18 whether for money or not. Period. There have been a number of prosecutions by both CR and US authorities. I do not know but would certainly hope that since 1995 this has reduced the incidence of such activity.

BUT REGARDLESS PEDOPHILIA HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WE DO. And though the studies authors threw in the relatively innocuous and in many ways accurate statement quoted above, the rest of their paper failed to provide any clear and convincing connection between these "regular guys", like ourselves, and the Ch*ld sex-mongers.

As has also been pointed out this study was conducted by a couple of female sociologists from the UK (my guess is they are in the women's study department - read that feminazi) and so probably already had a preconceived conclusion on what they would find before they even stepped on the plane to CR. Show me a similar study by 2 non-religiously affiliated male researchers from some less repressed place like Amsterdam and I might give it more credence.

What hasn't been pointed so far is that this study was based on only 7 DAYS of fieldwork actually in CR and only 16 interviews with any sex-tourist or sex-patriate (only 10 of which were in-depth). The rest of it was based on rehash or prior "studies" of indetermined quality. How many days has many of the whorticulturalists here been in CR and how many working girls has he gotten to know often in great depth and who are your going to believe has a better handle on what is going on down there.

As to the particular quote here, Furryman and Chesscat, summed it up pretty well. Sure, factually speaking, the description of the regular-guy sex tourists is fairly accurate (well excepting a few points like the defense magazine statement). That is not the point, the tone and the wording fairly drip with disapproval and prejudgement. The use of words like "believe" to suggest that we are totally delusional as to the realities of relative cultural/sexual attitudes. Furryman and Chessman are right. They apply the standards of their own cultures and think that it has to be the same in CR and to think differently is to be "racist". As Furryman pointed out, they conveniently forget the concept of cultural relativism when casting judgement on sex-tourist and yet themselves point out that the locals hold the very same attitudes that we correctly attribute to them. For example, here is a direct quote from the paper of a woman in Cahuita:
Quote:
No-one cares about age in Costa Rica, if it's an old man with a very young girl, that's just normal. Age difference doesn't matter.
There are numerous places in the paper where the authors acknowledge that the local attitudes about prostitution and age are much more callous than any we hold and that the problem of Ch*ld sexual abuse is almost entirely a LOCAL problem. In fact the very last paragraph of the portion that Getrhythm quoted alludes to that. It refers to a previously listed observation that the problem of abuse is almost entirely a problem of the local dives that even RBC is unlikely to go to or the drug-addicted street Ch*ldren which we all studiously avoid.

In sum, members can go and read this "study" themselves if they want to see a different perspective, but they aren't really going to learn anything new (except perhaps about the problem of LOCAL sexual exploitation). Just the same anti-sex-tourist propaganda packaged in pseudo-scientifc wrappings.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:56 pm 
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Gentlemen,

I may be missing something here but as I read the quote presented by Gethrythm I did not see anywhere in the article that has mentioned about Ch*ldren sex exploitation or Ch*ld prostitution. I noticed a phrase that mentioned "illegal brothels" which maybe implies to that type of activities which we do not condoned or approved.

Maybe this quote was only part of the whole article. I don't know. But I would cautioned anyone to not read into something that is not there.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:30 pm 
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Dino wrote:
I may be missing something here ... Maybe this quote was only part of the whole article. I don't know.
Correct, it was only a small excerpt from a study entitled "Ch*ld Prostitution and Sex Tourism
COSTA RICA". What those 2 things have to do with each other was never made completely clear. Taking that excerpt on the face of it, it is relatively innocuous and even perhaps somewhat on the mark. Taking the tone that it was written in context with the rest of the study, it is something else altogether.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:32 pm 
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Prolijo said:

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The admins were correct in deleting it as leaving it up was truly pointless a) because it gives the study more credence than it deserves and b) because any reaction here is both predictable(of course we abhor Ch*ld exploitation and of course that has nothing to do with what we do) and unlikely to affect any opinions that are already held on this subject by our members. I'm not sure why after seeing it deleted, GetRhythm thought it should be brought up again


Well, okay, a couple of reasons. First, I thought Jadcujo's intentions were misinterpreted to a large degree; and second, reading this paper brought back to mind the more recent LA Times article that I alluded to in my original post. As much as we rightfully disassociate ourselves from this type of activity, sometimes we need to be reminded that the morality police are not going away - and we need to be ready when they attack us with this kind of drivel. I appreciate the commentary received in response, all of which I am in total agreement with.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:37 pm 
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As Dino said, based on what GetRhythm posted I would agree with everything (for better or worse) except the "Defense" magazine reading.

While we are no longer in touch with one another I used to call Bruce Cassirer a friend.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:09 am 
I can do CR without a wingman!

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I read the report. There was so much bias in it that it lacks credibilty, although some conservatives might eat it up, unthinking any independent thought. I also thought that the way they linked ch*ld prostitution with normal legal activites, there was a lot of agenda there.
It should have been an opinion / editorial, not news / documentary.

Unfortunately, there is probably more truth in it than some might like to admit, but at least this gives us a chance to see their portrayal and make sure we don't appear to be the scum that those guys in the article were made out to be. There is a middle ground, and they unfairly glossed over anything that might actually be respectable and contradict their indictment of any and all sexual activity they were reporting on.

KS

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