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I believe this was an interesting topic that began in another thread. So as not to hijack that thread but at the same time allow some discussion I have started this thread. None of our forum descriptions seem to fit so because it is loosely tied to transportation initially I put it here. The discussion does not have to be confined to ATC policy.

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Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

Lets see how long we gentlemen can discuss this without getting into politics. I think we can do it.

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* These are the "Good Ole Days". Enjoy Them.

* RENT but, "Don't Buy a Home in Costa Rica" until you have lived here for THREE years.

The problem i have with some of this is the statements made. Perhaps they just were not explained well enough so that I got the wrong impression. For example:

"In my current area, exactly 100% of the new-hires have failed to certify. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them is still employed by the agency, working in a quiet little tower somewhere. Union dues well-spent."

That, to me, indicated that if you were unable to be certified they moved you to a small place where you could not cause major damage. It certainly did not convey the message that Pac55 posted in his response. Also the phrase "union dues well spent" would seem to indicate that had it not been for the union they would have had their employment terminated not sent off to the hinterlands.

"The vast majority of the general population just don't have the ability to do his job given unlimited time and training."

I am not sure that is a valid statement. There are a number of jobs that most people can not perform on a professional level no matter how hard they try or how much training they receive. Usually that is attacked two ways. 1. Stringent hiring procedures weed many out before they even start. 2. Recognizing those who can not keep up with the curriculum and washing them out.

"It would be a waste to throw away those who could make it at something a little less demanding, then work into the higher level hot seats."

I think the waste is to spend time and money on those who can not make the cut. Yes some might eventually make it but others never will. When do you decide it is time to cut your losses?

_________________
Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

As an employer of about 50 (non-union), I do have a dog in this hunt. This number of employees could be double but since the Internet Class started graduating in 2001 and forward we have been very disappointed in our hiring attempts. The potential employees have huge expectations and would rather stay unemployed rather than roll their sleeves up and work.

I am comparing this to when I had 20 employees in 1991. At this time I had a stable of bulldogs and 20 ready to fill their seats. All I had to do was place an ad in the local newspaper and I would have a few hundred people answering ready to work and learn a new profession.

As to Unions. While they may keep a Mega Corporation from eventually taking over to the point of having indentured servants, they also seem to stem an entitlement attitude of employees.

I think they need to separate Unions from political parties as much as possible. Not allowing any campaign contributions to either party.

I think the Unions saved the 80 hours a week coal miners and prevented slave labor in the USA.

I think they later Crushed General Motors to the point that they could no longer compete. (Both of my primary vehicles happen to be GM products)

A man is at his best when he has skin in the fight. Stress will kill a man. How do we find a medium.

A union prison maximum security guard in a California can make up to $182,000 a year with overtime. I think that's too much. When I was a ked, we knew that police did not make that much so I decided to take a different path. Fairly simple. As well I don't think a garbage collector in New York should make six figures. That just doesn't make sense to me.

_________________
* These are the "Good Ole Days". Enjoy Them.

* RENT but, "Don't Buy a Home in Costa Rica" until you have lived here for THREE years.

I have no disagreement with that statement. I believe that without the strong union movement from the 20's up through the 50's and perhaps a few years later there would not have been created the strong middle class in the U.S. Without them the economy would never have become as robust as it did which led to the the growth of housing, cars, furniture, appliances, restaurants, and just about every industry you can think of.

_________________
Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

If unions were to be prohibited from campaign contributions shouldn't corporations also be prohibited?

_________________
Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

Hmmm. I said this almost as a protection for the union as not to get indebted to anyone. Kind of like the FDA or OSHA or The Dept of Labor, but those are government agencies. I use the minimum wage and worker's compensation insurance as an example. These things have been accomplished without going too far. Sounds like I'm looking for a "can't we all get along-utopia". But there are many examples of Union existence that have succeeded for the company and for employees.

I think we need some sort of protections for workers without them eventually taking over and strong arming the company to the point of bankruptcy. But if this does happen as (my opinion was one of the causes of GM's fall) then let it takes its course and allow GM to go through the bankruptcy and start over.

_________________
* These are the "Good Ole Days". Enjoy Them.

* RENT but, "Don't Buy a Home in Costa Rica" until you have lived here for THREE years.

politician makes promise to union
union gives politician their support in words and currency
taxes rise
competition ceases to exist
taxpayer bites bullet in perpetuity with pensions starting at 55
how can that be good?
the same jobs that are unionized pay more than double what the private sector pays. and are usually manned by individuals that do about half speed work.
some cities have already started private sector street repairs, garbage pickup, etc. and are saving millions.

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im way deep into nothing special
riding the crest of a wave breaking just west of hollywood

ADMIN, this thread could quickly turn political

All unions are not created equal. I’ve been a tradesman belonging to a trade union for 35 years.
I never understood unions like the UAW and airline unions and teachers for that matter, where the company that you work for controls your health insurance, pension etc. if the company fails, so do all of their programs.
I am paid by the company I work for, but I work for the union I belong to.
My health insurance and my pension are controlled by my union.
If the company that is paying me goes out of business, it has no effect on my entitlements.
As for the pay, it’s simple, you work, you get paid, you don’t work, you don’t get paid, period.
There is no holiday pay, no sick days, no vacation pay.
If there’s a strike, we’re all on strike, strength in numbers.
Yes, I could have retired at 55, at a reduced rate. And now that I’m 60, I could retire and receive 100% of my pension, but the longer I go the more pension credits I’ll earn.

Background: I was a PATCO controller before the strike of '81 and I was an organizer of NATCA, the new controller's union. I bid a staff job in '88 and a supervisory/management position in '92 and worked in various management positions until I retired in '06.

In a fair world, neither PATCO or NATCA would have existed. They were necessary because management was acting irresponsibly, tossing controllers into a meat grinder job until they washed out or burned out. The job was impossible and management blamed controllers instead of managing the system (much easier to point fingers than to fix complex problems).

This is a Federal position and should not be blown by political winds. But since it is part of the Executive branch, regime change can have a devastating impact. For example, in the 90's we in management worked in partnership with the union. Some in management said that the partnership went too far, gave too much power to the union. Yet in any situation that my cohorts described I could easily point out where management didn't use the tools they had to manage the workforce. Instead, they left out critical and required steps that undermined their ability to manage. Time after time management decisions were overturned based on their own incompetency to follow their own rules (I was in charge of reviewing management actions for a seven state area in an attempt to mitigate the damage...I know of what I speak).

When regime change happened, the union contract was set aside and management started to act unilaterally, claiming an inability to negotiate (impasse). Pay scales were reduced by around 30%, dress codes were enacted (people working in a dark room, never on public display, couldn't wear blue jeans or shirts without a collar). All this to "show the union" who was in charge when, in fact, management always had the power but refused to exercise it in a responsible and defense-able manner.

I could go on all day but the bottom line is that the ATC profession will continue to need unionization due to the high-profile nature of the job, the way that managers are selected and trained and their overriding need to place blame on something other than themselves. I got out at age 55 because I refused to give any more of my time to a hopeless cause.

The FAA has gone from one of the most respected and above-board federal agencies to a clandestine dysfunctional inbred mess who's primary mission is to keep the flying public in the dark. God bless the union, they actually care about the flying public and not just about furthering their careers or stroking their egos or staying in the good graces of this week's politician.

Srilm, you area about to find out why a first line supe gets the extra money. You will have no friends above or below you. You will mouth the company line even when you have to grit your teeth to get the words out. You will defend your troops even when they are sticking a knife in your back. No matter how inane or insane the job becomes, try to remember, your job is to get everyone home alive.

Good luck!

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"Your love gives me such a thrill
but your love don't pay my bills,
I NEED THE MONEY!" - John Lee Hooker

Disclaimer: The above is merely the opinion of the author unless specific scientific data is included.
Your mileage may vary. https://costaricaticas.com/phpBB2/viewto ... 978#206978

Typical "Worker Bee" mentality. "We do all the work and the suits upstairs stand around with their thumbs up their asses" I hear that shit all the time. The same types of guys that sit around the corner bar swilling beer after work, talking shit about "college boys", as if getting an education was something worthy of derision.

I earned the the right to not get my hands dirty everyday, and now my job is to make (often unpopular) decisions that keep your ass in a paycheck.

And why the hell is this in the Hotel section?

I am a member of IBT (International Brotherhood of Teamsters). I am very pro-union. In the transportation business they are absolutely necessary.Transportation company execs. for years have been trying to lower or eliminate hours of service and safety requirements. Basically their dream is to put a truck or bus on the road with balding tires and a driver who has been going for 20 hours straight. All the statistics show that to be a deadly combination. But it looks great on paper so they push it. Who cares if a family of four is plowed over? Who cares if a bus rolls over killing or injuring all 53 potential passengers? Certainly not the bosses in the office. It takes unions to force some common sense into the office jockeys and protect the general public. The roads you dive on are much safer thanks to organized labor. Their is nothing wrong with workers making a fair wage and benefits. Unions protect the middle class.

Not speaking for Brother ID here but this Thread may be a "hide in plane site" job. I will have my little joke.

The other Brothers (MrLasVegas and Srilm) covered most of the bases, especially enforcement of safety and health issues, but it's also true that unions carry management's water sometimes, 2 ways: one is as a safety valve--explaining to a worker that they might have a legit gripe but not an actionable grievance under Postal Regs or the Collective Bargaining Agreement (the contract); also, there are times both workers and front-line management (sometimes even mid-level management) want to either make or stop a change--there's pressure from execs against which junior management is helpless--working together with our muscle and their knowledge, quite a few ill-considered follies have been stopped/ progressive actions /policies have been started.
Now in something of a veer toward the political from an economic standpoint: Wages for workers in the US have stagnated or even regressed since 1979, when anti-union activities/ union-busting ramped up rapidly (the Right to Starve laws [they call them Right to Work, but, c'mon, really...], the explosive growth of union-busting management advisory and law firms, especially in Memphis), and a general anti-worker feeling in the US (that labor is demeaning). There's a "crabs in the bucket" mentality working here--instead of seeking to bring up workers in general up to the level of unionized workers (wages, fringes, working conditions--the whole spectrum of working life), we get buckets and buckets of verbiage about leveling the playing field--DOWN to the level of the least of us--under the bogus guise of competitive conditions. Now we're at the point where workers have the same levels of anxiety as management has always had. "Defining deviancy down", "lowest common denominator prevails"--call it what you will. Funny thing is that, going forward, these wage tendencies will bite our economy in the ass--more money in a workers pocket along with a trend to stay employed long-term gets spent; more money in upper management's pocket gets invested, usually in the US; money in the Big Dog Wall Street/Silicon Valley mahoffs gets invested or spent elsewhere[/
Oh and before someone else utters the phrase "class warfare" as condemnation about efforts towards economic democratization--class warfare has been waged against workers since time immemorial--don't trouble yourself to go there unless you truly enjoy being catcalled and laughed at.

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"A man accustomed to hear only the echo of his own sentiments, soon bars all the common avenues of delight, and has no part in the general gratification of mankind"--Dr. Johnson
"Amen, brother"-ED