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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:15 am 
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More American Expatriates Give Up Citizenship
By BRIAN KNOWLTON
Published: April 25, 2010




WASHINGTON — Amid mounting frustration over taxation and banking problems, small but growing numbers of overseas Americans are taking the weighty step of renouncing their citizenship.

“What we have seen is a substantial change in mentality among the overseas community in the past two years,” said Jackie Bugnion, director of American Citizens Abroad, an advocacy group based in Geneva. “Before, no one would dare mention to other Americans that they were even thinking of renouncing their U.S. nationality. Now, it is an openly discussed issue.”

The Federal Register, the government publication that records such decisions, shows that 502 expatriates gave up their U.S. citizenship or permanent residency status in the last quarter of 2009. That is a tiny portion of the 5.2 million Americans estimated by the State Department to be living abroad.

Still, 502 was the largest quarterly figure in years, more than twice the total for all of 2008, and it looms larger, given how agonizing the decision can be. There were 235 renunciations in 2008 and 743 last year. Waiting periods to meet with consular officers to formalize renunciations have grown.

Anecdotally, frustrations over tax and banking questions, not political considerations, appear to be the main drivers of the surge. Expat advocates say that as it becomes more difficult for Americans to live and work abroad, it will become harder for American companies to compete.

American expats have long complained that the United States is the only industrialized country to tax citizens on income earned abroad, even when they are taxed in their country of residence, though they are allowed to exclude their first $91,400 in foreign-earned income.

One Swiss-based business executive, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of sensitive family issues, said she weighed the decision for 10 years. She had lived abroad for years but had pleasant memories of service in the U.S. Marine Corps.

Yet the notion of double taxation — and of future tax obligations for her Ch*ldren, who will receive few U.S. services — finally pushed her to renounce, she said.

“I loved my time in the Marines, and the U.S. is still a great country,” she said. “But having lived here 20 years and having to pay and file while seeing other countries’ nationals not having to do that, I just think it’s grossly unfair.”

“It’s taxation without representation,” she added.

Stringent new banking regulations — aimed both at curbing tax evasion and, under the Patriot Act, preventing money from flowing to terrorist groups — have inadvertently made it harder for some expats to keep bank accounts in the United States and in some cases abroad.

Some U.S.-based banks have closed expats’ accounts because of difficulty in certifying that the holders still maintain U.S. addresses, as required by a Patriot Act provision.

“It seems the new anti-terrorist rules are having unintended effects,” Daniel Flynn, who lives in Belgium, wrote in a letter quoted by the Americans Abroad Caucus in the U.S. Congress in correspondence with the Treasury Department.

“I was born in San Francisco in 1939, served my country as an army officer from 1961 to 1963, have been paying U.S. income taxes for 57 years, since 1952, have continually maintained federal voting residence, and hold a valid American passport.”

Mr. Flynn had held an account with a U.S. bank for 44 years. Still, he wrote, “they said that the new anti-terrorism rules required them to close our account because of our address outside the U.S.”

Kathleen Rittenhouse, who lives in Canada, wrote that until she encountered a similar problem, “I did not know that the Patriot Act placed me in the same category as terrorists, arms dealers and money launderers.”

Andy Sundberg, another director of American Citizens Abroad, said, “These banks are closing our accounts as acts of prudent self-defense.” But the result, he said, is that expats have become “toxic citizens.”

The Americans Abroad Caucus, headed by Representative Carolyn B. Maloney, Democrat of New York, and Representative Joe Wilson, Republican of South Carolina, has made repeated entreaties to the Treasury Department.

In response, Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner wrote Ms. Maloney on Feb. 24 that “nothing in U.S. financial law and regulation should make it impossible for Americans living abroad to access financial services here in the United States.”

But banks, Treasury officials note, are free to ignore that advice.

“That Americans living overseas are being denied banking services in U.S. banks, and increasingly in foreign banks, is unacceptable,” Ms. Maloney said in a letter Friday to leaders of the House Financial Services Committee, requesting a hearing on the question.

Mr. Wilson, joining her request, said that pleas from expats for relief “continue to come in at a startling rate.”

Relinquishing citizenship is relatively simple. The person must appear before a U.S. consular or diplomatic official in a foreign country and sign a renunciation oath. This does not allow a person to escape old tax bills or military obligations.

Now, expats’ representatives fear renunciations will become more common.

“It is a sad outcome,” Ms. Bugnion said, “but I personally feel that we are now seeing only the tip of the iceberg

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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 2:53 pm 
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Yep - the US tax rules pretty much suck. It is EXACTLY taxation without representation if you are living abroad. The foreign income exclusion only applies with the following:

1. You pay income taxes to a foreign country and are willing to fully disclose all of this to the IRS
2. You travel back to the US for no more than 5 days per year

Now, wait a minute.... If I only spend five days per year in the US. Why the phuck should I have to pay all that income tax anyway? And, if I spend 6 days, I'm supposed to pay tax to both countries???!!! Yeah right - someone needs to re-write this phucking tax code. There is no other country in the world that is this "tight" with their citizens.

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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 4:43 pm 
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Californicationdude wrote:
More American Expatriates Give Up Citizenship
By BRIAN KNOWLTON
Published: April 25, 2010




WASHINGTON — Amid mounting frustration over taxation and banking problems, small but growing numbers of overseas Americans are taking the weighty step of renouncing their citizenship.


Now, expats’ representatives fear renunciations will become more common.

“It is a sad outcome,” Ms. Bugnion said, “but I personally feel that we are now seeing only the tip of the iceberg


Agree with all this. I think more and more upper-middle-income>very rich will make the well-reasoned decision to seek citizenship elsewhere, especially those countries where English is widely spoken and with stable political environments. A reverse Diaspora to Ireland, for one prime example.

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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 7:49 pm 
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I will give up mine at retirement age. If not for the money I have little use for the USA.


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 9:58 pm 
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MrLasVegas wrote:
I will give up mine at retirement age. If not for the money I have little use for the USA.

why would you do that? your not earning any more so whats the point? And further wouldnt you be giving up your social security benefit?, just curious I could have my thinking wrong here...


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 10:19 pm 
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Brother CRSuftown brings up an interesting point--Do you give up your Social Security Benefits if you renounce US citizenship? Even though the 1st 3-4 years of benefit payments is a return of money you put in? Brother ID, got a take on this?

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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 1:29 am 
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I am not banking on any Social Security benefits being around. I am 38 now and plan to exit the country by 59 for good. My union will provide a pension. Then I am out never to return. I would think you lose Social Security benefits if they exist.


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:11 am 
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Well - I don't mean to slam the US and would never give-up my citizenship. What is the quote - a man without a country is a man without _____________.

I'm just sick of the IRS tax policy. I've been paying taxes like always for the past 4 years. The Canadians I know down here - haven't paid a penny. I tell them my story and they think its crazy. Since the IRS can get into your accounts just about anywhere and even freeze accounts - doesn't that make them pretty much the only organization in the world with that power?

The IRS makes it almost impossible to live abroad and earn a decent living. You can do it - but they will stick it to your ass if you spend more than 5 days in the US.

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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 12:47 pm 
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here is some irs info

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/internati ... 39,00.html


The United States has tax treaties with a number of foreign countries. Under these treaties, residents (not necessarily citizens) of foreign countries are taxed at a reduced rate, or are exempt from U.S. taxes on certain items of income they receive from sources within the United States. These reduced rates and exemptions vary among countries and specific items of income. Under these same treaties, residents or citizens of the United States are taxed at a reduced rate, or are exempt from foreign taxes, on certain items of income they receive from sources within foreign countries. Most income tax treaties contain what is known as a "saving clause" which prevents a citizen or resident of the United States from using the provisions of a tax treaty in order to avoid taxation of U.S. source income.

If the treaty does not cover a particular kind of income, or if there is no treaty between your country and the United States, you must pay tax on the income in the same way and at the same rates shown in the instructions for the applicable U.S. tax return.

Many of the individual states of the United States tax income which is sourced in their states. Therefore, you should consult the tax authorities of the state from which you derive income to find out whether any state tax applies to any of your income. Some states of the United States do not honor the provisions of tax treaties.

This page provides links to tax treaties between the United States and particular countries. For further information on tax treaties refer also to the Treasury Department's Tax Treaty Documents page.


also, another link with info

http://www.taxmeless.com/IRS593Publication.htm

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 2:16 am 
your passport, that allows you to travel pretty much any where in the world, goes too.

new country better be first world.


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 8:07 am 
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I'd be interested to know if an expat who renounced citizenship could continue to receive a federal or state pension after doing so. And of so, would it be taxed?

Come on Jazz, research this for us.

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 11:13 am 
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Thanks for the challenge, Brother El V--you know how much I love a legit one.
Meanwhile while I'm researching this, here's some interim reading--good info here, worth your while:
http://www.panamanewsbriefs.com/?p=11105

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 3:54 pm 
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Still researching the original question but here's a thought: Instead of renouncing US citizenship, why not just purchase a 2nd citizenship in another country? Perfectly legal I believe as long as there's no intent to defraud. Cost is about $100K to be the envy of all your friends and befuddle your enemies. Here's more:
http://secondcitizen.webmasterindia.com/pricing.php

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 5:11 pm 
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Greengo wrote:
Har har....who givesashit about taxes with 39 billion of your hard earned tax dollars going to bail out a bunch of lazy ouzo guzzlers who want to retire at 50 with full benefits on a currency created to syphon the reamaining goodies from your billions invested in bases troops and the blood of americans who have died saving their sorry asses from the vodka dribblers...goosesteppers and one another... :D

wait........I could be wrong but I thought Germany and Europe were bailing out Greece? I could have read it wrong but I thought europe and its eurozone were floating that terd.

Jazzbo is correct you can buy a second passport or if you have offspring in any said country you can also get citizenship or residency at the very least, and you can retain your your passport ... the US passport is valuable never give it up unless you absolutely have to,\.
For example, hypothetical: lets say you live and work in Brazil for ten years, pay taxes in Brazil have a daughter there and residency, you dont pay taxes for 10 years to US since you have been in Brazil the whole time paying into their system...Now ten years later you decide you want to go back to the US for whatever reason, as long as you have not renounced your citizenship they will let you come back, you may have some tax issues but it would not be fraud....it would just be hey you owe some taxes if you want to come back in the US.....So there is no real upside to giving up the citizenship....
I know someone in Jaco who has this very issue he has been outside of US for 6 years now and has a big tax bill which he acknowledges he owes but its not fraud because he has filed it and states he owes it and his view is yeah its his debt to the US and hes not going back to the US until he can afford it to pay it back...(which is probably several years), yet after all this he still has his us citizenship and will not give it up and now he has a costarican residency and a costarican daughter


Last edited by CRSurftown on Sat May 08, 2010 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 5:36 pm 
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Location: NFM--Geezers, cowpokes and the working poor--yeeha!
About that renunciation thing--The US really plays hard-ball if you do; not only can they and do deny you entry no matter what the reason, they can and will take you off a flight that lands or transits the US (including emergency landings or even if the plane never goes to a gate). They ain't jokin'.
I'd love to hear interviews or a poll taken with those 500+ folks that renounced last year...with a follow-up 5-10 years later about regrets and such.
I may have severe differences with the US (policies, governments, etc.) but renounce?--NEVER! My mama raised a fool but he lives in a different state.

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