www.CostaRicaTicas.com

That off course is a matter of conjecture but I would doubt it. I think the opposite would occur and the Colombians and Nicaraguans would leave Costa Rica.

_________________
Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

Steven1,
Of course, this is Admin1's call and he may want to seek input on it from a variety of members, but I think his restriction on "politics and religion" is mainly to avoid threads degenerating into flame wars since those are subjects that many people take very personally. There is also the reason that a discussion of US Politics doesn't really belong on a discussion board on CR. Since discussing CR politics does have more of a direct bearing on what we do, we mostly talk about it dispassionately as outside observers and for the most part we are all of pretty much the same political outlook about CR politics anyway (as BB57 said "preaching to the choir"), I don't see much danger of these discussions creating any serious problems and therefore don't see any significant reason for him to include it in his ban. Of course, I could be wrong and this discussion MIGHT get out of hand and if it does I'm sure Admin1 will step in, put a stop to it, and clarify the rule for the future. But in the meantime, everyone here seems to handling the discussion very civilly, so if you think you have something useful to add and can do so in the polite manner, I see no reason why you shouldn't.

Why is it income level

NYG

_________________
Damm that water is cold!!!
And deep too!!!

NYG and ID,
Ticas going to Nicaragua or Colombia to ply the trade there? I'll have to agree with ID on that. MANY things would have to happen before you ever saw a mass migration of tica working girls to Nicaragua.
1) P4P would have to become totally shut down in CR, which remains to be seen
2) The number of gringo mongers who travel to Nicaragua would have to radically increase, since the rates the locals pay hookers over there is even less than it is in CR.
3) Nicaragua's economy would have to radically improve because as bad as things are in CR they are still WAAYYY better off financially than they are in Nica.
4) Colombia is not as bad off as Nicaragua and already has a foreign monger element but it is much harder to get to for Ticas and has a much worse security situation. Even more importantly, what makes you think the Colombianas will put up with having Ticas invade their turf. The Colombiana working girls that the Ticas have already met at the HDR can be very tough about enforcing their "rules". Do you think they will want to chance moving to a country filled with them and then competing with them on their home turf?

Colombians and Nicaraguans leaving CR? Maybe the ones who came here JUST to work the gringo P4P trade. But there are also plenty of Colombians in CR engaged in, ahem, other businesses. And there are a TON of Nicaraguans in CR working low-wage jobs who have nothing at all to do with the P4P biz. The Nicas will still need to make a living. As long as they can find something in CR that pays better than unemployment at home, a portion of them may stick around. Maybe it will be working the tico brothels, as many of them already do (assuming that if any outlawing happens it will only be enforced at high profile gringo places), or maybe it will be picking coffee or working elsewhere in the underground economy, but a portion of them will find a place.

Any how, thats how I see it.

First of all, BB57 has already explained that he wasn't saying he believed this himself but that was what TICOS believed.

Secondly, not that it effects the point I think you were trying to make, but when you say most of the people you read about getting robbed or killed in CR being tourist types of one sort or another, I would think you must have meant most of the GRINGOS that you read about. I don't have any stats to back this up (and I doubt any such reliable stats exist) but I'm pretty sure most crime victims in CR are actually the Ticos themselves (or other latinos, such as the 5 men who were found last January in a quarry near the Panamanian border, bound with plastic handcuffs and shot in the head). Even amongst gringos, I'd think most incidents of crime occur against foreign expats who LIVE in CR.

I think there are several reasons you may have gotten a different impression from what you've READ. You probably only read english language sites like this one, AMCostaRica, the Tico Times etc. and they mainly only cover crimes against foreigners because those are the crimes of most interest to their readership. Even if these weren't gringo-oriented news sources, crimes against locals are so much more common that they barely even warrant a headline.

Crimes of murder occur in CR practically everyday. Can anyone remember the last time a gringo got killed in CR? The last one I recall reading about here was some fool who was living at the Scotland Apartments (and apparently was mixed up in things he shouldn't have been) and got himself killed last Sept. It wouldn't surprise me if there have been other incidents of gringo RESIDENTS being killed that I'm not aware of since then, but the point is these are not a daily, weekly or perhaps even monthly event like it is for non-gringos who get killed. And for an incident of a foreign TOURIST getting killed in CR one would have to go back even further than that (such as the murder of the two Emily's back in 2000).

Robberies may be a slightly different story since rich tourists are a naturally target for most crooks but in terms of sheer numbers and frequency of occurance I would have to think even there it is the Ticos themselves (and foreigners living in CR) who are most often the victims. There are just so many more of them to rob and they live and work in areas where crooks are most likely to be.

Lastly, I'd agree that robberies of mainstream tourist types probably make up the majority of such robberies that happen to TOURISTS, but that is mostly because they probably represent at least 90% of the total number of tourists. If you're talking about the likelihood of an INDIVIDUAL tourist getting robbed then I suspect MONGER tourists fare worse than other tourist types. The reasons for that are severalfold. First, they travel in areas that are more subject to crime. Theft does occur at remote tourist beaches, but gritty heavily urbanized areas like the Gulch are still the prime tourist area for crime to occur. Secondly, while some regular CR VETERANS may have acquired some street sense to generalize that most monger tourists are experienced and street smart is a huge stretch. The recent story about the guy with the Hawaiin shirt and gold chain who got hit in front of the NYB is just the latest example. And many veterans have gotten hit too, either because they haven't learned, slipped up or their number finally just came up after coming to SJ so many times.
------

Oh yeah, one last thing. The fact that most crimes do not involve mongers and that outlawing prostitution would not decrease crime (only shift it to other places) doesn't mean that outlawing prostitution would INCREASE overall crime. I don't see the logic in that.

Costa Rican politics has a DIRECT bearing on the activities of the members of this board. If you have insight, Steven1, it will be welcome, from me at least. I don't think most of us need 'inside baseball' type stuff, but if you can reassure the membership that we have nothing to worry about from the upcoming political process, or can supply reasons why we SHOULD be worried, I think the members would appreciate all such information.

_________________
"The only normal people are those you don't know very well." Joe Ancis

[quote="Greengo"]The world bank(95%your tax dollars)just "gave" CR 2 billion dollars....quote]

Why let facts get in the way when a bit of hyperbole can be used for a political point. Over the last several years, the US has contributed 17-20% of the World Banks revenue (and therefore has a corresponding percentage of votes). Also, if you look at the actual research, every dollar contributed has lead to about two dollars in contracts (figured vary by studies).....

_________________
I said hey baby, take a walk on the wild side.
Lou Reed

No chance- Nicaragua's economy and per capita income are the second worst in the hemisphere. Costa Rica's migration laws, relative social stablity, and growing industrial sector after the Contra war were huge factors in the influx of Nicaraguans.

_________________
I said hey baby, take a walk on the wild side.
Lou Reed

Just one of those things that makes ya go.. hmmm Would one really have sex with a Tica if they were in Colombia?

Yes, outlawing prostitution would increase the crime rate manyfold because it would diminish the number of sex tourists only slightly and engaging prostitutes would be a crime. But what I took Brother Prolijo to mean was, would it increase the violent crime rate? I believe the answer to that is "no"--except for the fools who would listen to blandishments from some street creep inviting them into the alley to sex their sister/mother/brother/etc. and would most def' affect the business model of most of our Sponsors.

_________________
"A man accustomed to hear only the echo of his own sentiments, soon bars all the common avenues of delight, and has no part in the general gratification of mankind"--Dr. Johnson
"Amen, brother"-ED

As always, Brother Greengo puts you right in the picture. I think they use Hitatchi supercomputers not Crays...but a mere quibble. The US owns and controls the World Bank, and it has been badly misused. Lending to fund environment-destroying mega-projects (China and elsewhere) and daring to preach to other countries about "fiscal austerity" then refusing to use the same "bully pulpit" to chastise the US, the list goes on and on. Let's see if it's "The World Bank" and what it's policies are , when the USD is no longer the world reserve currency- Oh, the whimpers and howls of protest!

_________________
"A man accustomed to hear only the echo of his own sentiments, soon bars all the common avenues of delight, and has no part in the general gratification of mankind"--Dr. Johnson
"Amen, brother"-ED

Thank you, Prolijo and Bilko. Here goes:

Birds of the night shall always be, irrespective of laws or mores. Certainly, should the world's oldest profession be made outright illegal in CR, the "scene" will change, but not in any significant fashion, really. Professional "mongers" know how to go about their business and in a Nation where the practice has been going on forever and a day....well....the chicas will be the one's who shall become most creative in order to ply their trade. That being said, it really does appear that the focus on "prostitution" is nothing more than a simple smoke screen to remove the shining light away from the people of Costa Rica and the social issues they confront. The most recent one of a most large proporation was the "passing" of CAFTA. During each and every one of my trips I have made it a point for the primary focus of each trip to center around listening to what the "common man" (and woman) had to say about what was going on in their country (these discussions led to my decision now was no time to be buying anything in CR and to get in all the "fun" I could for the time being).

Costa Rica's adherence to CAFTA has detonated a huge discussion throughout the country and catalyzed a diverse and growing grassroots movement that questions the essence of the economic model promoted by the North (that is the USA), and seeks to open doors to a more congruent model of development—one that's consistent with the history of Costa Rica and the needs of the countries of the South. Given the staunch support for CAFTA coming from the federal government, which seeks to impose the agreement at all costs, the year 2007 can be viewed as a defining moment for the future of this Central American nation.

There has been, since the passing of CAFTA a serious deterioration of public institutions, as government spending limits dry up public investment, and corruption and impunity have grown. There is now enormous pressure to transfer remaining activities to the private sector. The rationale is that the public sector is inefficient and needs private initiative to take direct charge of services that up to now have been in the hands of the state as administrator of the collective interest.

"The final push for the FTA came from the current administration of the Arias brothers—president Oscar and Rodrigo, his chief of staff—that took power in May of 2006. Arias took power in the midst of a huge mobilization rejecting the results of an extremely close election (just a 1% margin over the Citizen Action Party-PAC). This was the first time in Costa Rica's history that an election had been popularly contested, amidst serious questioning of the Constitutional Court decision to annul a 1969 legislative statute that prohibited presidential reelection. Oscar Arias previously held the presidency from 1986-1990. CAFTA is a vital issue for the Arias administration and it was prepared to get it approved in any way possible." (data sight available via PM)

The changes in the economic model over the past years have also resulted in an almost exclusive focus on exports and foreign investment as dynamic mechanisms of the economy, to the detriment of public policies directed toward small and medium businesses, or the growth of the domestic market. However, this model has developed alongside growing unemployment and has demonstrated its inability to generate or distribute wealth, since the export-economy produces almost no fiscal productive chains or social linkages to the national economy as a whole.

Concentration of wealth in the country has also been on the rise: Between 1988 and 2005, the income of the poorest 20% of the population fell 13.9%, and that of the top 20% increased 67.9%. As for employment, the informal sector still experiences the largest growth each year, creating 65% of all new jobs in 2005. The replacement of a strong formal economy labor pool with a burgeoning informal economy leads to erosion in working conditions for the majority of workers in the country. In this context, the FTA with the United States expresses the consolidation of a tendency that is not new and that has shown itself to have enormous limitations in generating a sustainable, solidarity-based, and fair system. The FTA will mandate that these negative tendencies become permanent and practically the only permitted route to "development."

"The negotiations on the FTA took place in nine rounds along with the other Central American countries in 2003, and one additional round in 2004 just between Costa Rica and the United States. They were led by a team of professionals from the Ministry of Foreign Commerce (Comex) with close ties to corporate interests. It later came to light that several of the Costa Rican government's negotiators received their salaries from the Costa Rica-United States Foundation (CR-USA)—an agency specially created to channel funds from USAID (the U.S. Agency for International Development). The CR-USA Foundation administers money from the U.S. government and spent US$901,460 to support the Costa Rican FTA negotiating team.2 The country deposited a strategic negotiation in the hands of a staff paid for by the other side." (data sight available via PM)

Costa Ricans only found out about the contents of the agreement when the FTA had already been signed. Even then, they did not have access to the documentation corresponding to the negotiation process—government officials claimed it had "been lost" with the change in ministries from the previous administration.

"Currently the opposition in Congress is made up of two representatives of the Broad Front and Access without Exclusion Parties and 17 representatives of the Citizen Action Party, who have formed a legislative front against the FTA and support a unified struggle in the Assembly. On the other side, the FTA is supported by the 25 representatives of the National Liberation Party (PLN) and six of the Libertarian Movement, with the support of the Social Christian Unity Party (five representatives), the National Restoration Party (one representative) and the National Union Party (one representative). This majority of 38 votes approved granting "fast track" to various bills related to the FTA calculates that the agreement itself will be ratified in at most a month. A measure to reform legislative procedure to apply the same "fast track" procedure to the FTA is currently up for approval, despite the fact that the mechanism is being challenged in Constitutional Court on the basis of how it was instituted and how it is used, because it violates legislative rules." (data site available via PM).

I got a whole lot more to discuss, but I rather suspect the insulated would rather not. In essence, the people of Costa Rica don't give a rat's rear end about whether or not what we do is legal or not legal...they got some bigger fish to fry and this "legal" vs. "not legal" stuff is, again, but a smokescreen because the real issues are most certainly being discussed amongst the people...and...trust me....they are not spending a heck of a lot of time worrying about the "sex trade".

_________________
"Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the over-compensations for misery. And, of course, stability isn't nearly so spectacular as instability. And being contented has none of the glamour of a good fight against misfortune, none of the picturesqueness of a struggle with temptation, or a fatal overthrow by passion or doubt. Happiness is never grand."
- Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, Ch. 16

First of all I was not thinking just asking ID a question. Which is getting tougher and tougher on this board with so many high and mighty souls on it


NYG

_________________
Damm that water is cold!!!
And deep too!!!

Everything Steven1 wrote about CAFTA (TLC) and FTA is basically correct and I believe, nothing new to those of us who live here, and are at least somewhat interested in what is going on in our chosen country of residence. What he wrote is a very good explanation of what is going on in Costa Rican politics and how it affects the Ticos.
Yes CAFTA is probably the #1 concern of many Ticos, and the sex industry status is further down the list of priorities; BUT in the context of this thread, and of primary concern to the members on CRT, IS THE ISSUE OF PROSTITUTION in Costa Rica. What I believe concerns most here is that which directly affects us and our mongering activities.

NO one who knows anything about the issue has said that Laura or anyone else wants to "outlaw" prostitution. NO one expects her to even try to get laws passed to stop all prostitution- but she HAS let her positition on sex tourism be known, and HAS demonstrated that she can and probably, WILL, do things to reduce and or eliminate the sex tourism business in Casta Rica. What she may or may not do in terms of prostitution is the issue of discussion in this thread; and it has little or nothing to do with CAFTA or for that matter, any other political issue of concern to the people of Costa Rica. And probably most reading this thread have little interest (though they really should be VERY interested) or concern for any of the other issues of this campaign. JMHO

As for how her possible actions might or might not affect us; Sure it would probably have little effect on those of us who live here as for as getting sex is concerned. It would probably have little affect on the hardcore, longtime monger who has been here many times and knows his way around. Would it affect the occasional monger, the monger new to Costa Rica, the mongers who want it guick and easy with no complications . HELL YES AND FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE A SENSE OF BROTHERHOOD with our fellow mongers, YES, it could drastically change our life style here

_________________
Old and retired but still bang, and bang, and bang!!!

Well if Prolijo should decide to retire it appears we have Steven1 ready to step in as his replacement.

_________________
Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine