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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:35 pm 
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I say let the big three auto companies sink. Giving them money is like pissing in the wind. They are failing because they make inferior products that last 100,000 if you are lucky. Everybody knows if you buy a good nissan it will last 300,000 if you want to keep it that long.
Instead put 35 billion into research and development for alternative energy cars and offset the job losses that way. That will also serve the purpose of no longer sending a fortune to middle eastern countries who hate our guts. Pull all troops out, stop sending money there and let the chips fall where they may. IF oil is no longer a commodity on the world markets all they have over there is desert and thier economies will collapse. Just a modest proprosal here.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:02 pm 
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Well, if the Japanese can make money on US located car plants with loaded employee costs of less than $50 per hour and GM is 34% higher that is a main reason for US dysfunction. The Big three have also been stupid and arrogrant. Their mantra is build them and we will buy them. Well, they have somewhat improved their quality but have totally missed the market and what we need. God knows what advanced promising techologies they have buried in favor of doing what that have done in the past.

A bail out might save one or two, but there isn't enough competition to force tax payers to save all three.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:25 am 
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I'm most pleased to see that neither Brother HJ nor El Viejo blamed Labor for the Big 3 debacle. It was generations of obscenely-compensated auto execs that bought labor peace by "giving up the store", knowing the price would not have to be paid in their lifetimes. Well, the bill came due...at exactly the wrong time. There cannot persist the notion of "too big to fail" or "it's in the nation's industrial interest". By the way, the foreign automakers have successfully resisted Unionism in part by being better places to work. The old saying "Unions can't exist without the oxygen of bad management" has certainly proved true in the U.S. auto industry.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:23 am 
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Hell, I'm a union employee for a railroad here in the US and even I think the UAW contracts are insane. One Jazzbo is right that the management caved in and gave them what they wanted at the expense of the companies future. But a properly functioning union should not try to break the industry that provides its jobs.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:15 am 
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I can't wait to drive one of those TATA Nano cars. Its only $2,500 base price, and seats 4, somehow.

As for the bailout, the country is already bankrupt. What difference does another 25 billion make? I say party on like its 1999... :twisted:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:23 pm 
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Detroit has had problems for years and they're well documented. With some bailout money about to be approved, its the taxpayers getting stuck yet again. Article below.



Just Say No to Detroit
NOVEMBER 15, 2008
Given the abysmal performance by Detroit's Big Three, it would be better to send each employee a check than to waste it on a bailout, says David Yermack.

Before Michael Moore became famous for documentaries like "Fahrenheit 9/11" and "Sicko," his first big success came in 1989 with "Roger and Me." In that film, Mr. Moore followed General Motors chairman and chief executive Roger Smith with a camera crew, asking him why the company was closing plants and producing low-quality vehicles. Mr. Smith looked flustered and inartfully avoided Mr. Moore's camera crew while it lingered outside his country club or GM's executive offices.

"Roger and Me" was entertaining, but it missed the real story about Roger Smith, who turned out to be a forward-thinking genius. Mr. Smith made big investments in information technology and satellite communications, acquiring Electronic Data Systems in 1984 for $2.5 billion and Hughes Aircraft in 1985 for $5.2 billion. Mr. Smith's successors divested those businesses at huge profits -- EDS was taken public in 1996 for more than $27 billion, and Hughes, renamed DirecTV, went public in 2003 for more than $23 billion. (The man who sold EDS to Roger Smith at a bargain price was H. Ross Perot, who then convinced many people that the experience qualified him to be president.)

Mr. Smith understood all too well that GM shouldn't continue investing in its failing automobile business. That was 25 years ago. Today, our government is being asked to put tens of billions of dollars in GM, Ford and Chrysler, but we would be much better off if Washington allowed these companies to go bankrupt and disappear.

In 1993, the legendary economist Michael Jensen gave his presidential address to the American Finance Association. Mr. Jensen's presentation included a ranking of which U.S. companies had made the most money-losing investments during the decade of the 1980s. The top two companies on his list were General Motors and Ford, which between them had destroyed $110 billion in capital between 1980 and 1990, according to Mr. Jensen's calculations.

I was a student in Mr. Jensen's business-school class around that time, and one day he put those rankings on the board and shouted "J'accuse!" He wanted his students to understand that when a company makes money-losing investments, the cost falls upon all of society. Investment capital represents our limited stock of national savings, and when companies spend it badly, our future well-being is compromised. Mr. Jensen made his presentation more than 15 years ago, and even then it seemed obvious that the right strategy for GM would be to exit the car business, because many other companies made better vehicles at lower cost.

Roger Smith, who retired as chairman in 1990, seemed to understand that all too well, and so did Chrysler's management, which happily sold their company to Daimler Benz for $30.5 billion in 1998. That deal, one of the savviest corporate divestitures ever, ended very badly for Daimler, which essentially paid Cerberus a few billion dollars (by agreeing to retain pension liabilities) to take Chrysler off its hands in 2007.

Over the past decade, the capital destruction by GM has been breathtaking, on a greater scale than documented by Mr. Jensen for the 1980s. GM has invested $310 billion in its business between 1998 and 2007. The total depreciation of GM's physical plant during this period was $128 billion, meaning that a net $182 billion of society's capital has been pumped into GM over the past decade -- a waste of about $1.5 billion per month of national savings. The story at Ford has not been as adverse but is still disheartening, as Ford has invested $155 billion and consumed $8 billion net of depreciation since 1998.

As a society, we have very little to show for this $465 billion. At the end of 1998, GM's market capitalization was $46 billion and Ford's was $71 billion. Today both firms have negligible value, with share prices in the low single digits. Both are facing imminent bankruptcy and delisting from the major stock exchanges. Along with management, the companies' unions and even their regulators in Washington may have their own culpability, a topic that merits its own separate discussion. Yet one can only imagine how the $465 billion could have been used better -- for instance, GM and Ford could have closed their own facilities and acquired all of the shares of Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Volkswagen.

The implications of this story for Washington policy makers are obvious. Investing in the major auto companies today would be throwing good money after bad. Many are suggesting that $25 billion of public money be immediately injected into the auto business in order to buy time for an even larger bailout to be organized. We would do better to set this money on fire rather than using it to keep these dying firms on life support, setting them up for even more money-losing investments in the future.
Two main arguments are being raised to justify a government rescue of the auto industry. First, large numbers of jobs may be at stake, perhaps as many as three million if one counts all the other firms that supply the Big Three. This greatly overstates the situation. Americans are not going to stop driving cars, and if GM, Ford and Chrysler disappear, other companies will expand to soak up their market share, adding jobs in the process. Many suppliers will also stay in business to satisfy the residual demand for spare parts even if the Detroit manufacturers go under. If the government wants to spend $25 billion to protect auto workers, it would do better to transfer the money to them directly (perhaps by cutting each worker a check for $10,000) rather than by keeping their unproductive employer in business.

Second, it is suggested that the failures of the U.S. financial industry, which have cost us something like $700 billion, justify bailouts of other sectors of the economy. This makes no sense. If the government diverts our national savings into businesses that have long track records of destroying investment capital, eventually we'll end up with an economy like France's -- or Zimbabwe's.

Other arguments are on the table as well. Some see the troubles at GM and Ford as opportunities to retool the auto industry to produce environmentally friendly cars. Given their long track records of lobbying against fuel economy standards and producing oversized gas guzzlers, this suggestion seems ridiculous, sort of like asking cigarette companies to help with cancer research.

Not many of my students today remember "Roger and Me" (many confuse the film with another picture from the same era about the cartoon character Roger Rabbit). However, Roger Smith's example casts a long shadow over the auto industry today. It's time to cut our losses and let society's scarce investment capital flow to an industry with more long-term potential to create jobs and economic value.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:36 pm 
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I will not bash Union rank and file because they will suffer for mistakes made by many parties. I will say that it is a complex issue and the fight between Union and Management is unhealthy, and ultimately stupid to the ppint of being suicidal. In the early days of that Robber Barons, Unions needed a foothold to keep from being exploited and starving. Later on in good times, Unions probably demanded and got more than was healthy for their business sectors. The whole thing is now too out of kilter and the realignment will prove tragic for many.

I am retired but do some work for a company that has only two rules. The first rule is that all employees take care 110% of customers. The second rule is that management pays employees what they are worth and takes care of it's main asset which are the employees. That is an unbeatable combination, and one that could only exist in a privately run enterprise. Trying this in a public company with shareholders and a investor profit motive would skew it all to heck.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:01 pm 
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You brothers are right. This is indeed a very complex issue with PLENTY of blame to go around. Greedy auto execs, greedy union, greedy share holders and the "got to have it all" American consumer.

Either way this is a bad situation with far reaching effects. Will be bad for tax payers or bad for many workers with jobs dependent on the auto industry (collateral damage). Too bad, as always the greedy phuchers at the top will have theirs no matter what.

"Every day the bucket go to the well..One day the bottom will drop out.. Yes one day the bottom will drop out"


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:56 am 
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Very cogent posts, especially by Brother Bigbossman72. A lot of those arguments could also be made about U.S. Airlines except the "cost of entry" is so much lower for them. Now about the greedy unions asking too much--How long would those leaders last if they didn't ask for more than they hoped to get in pay and fringes? We're talking genuine "arms-length" negotiations with roughly equal power on both sides of the table. Meanwhile auto industry's execs "negotiate" their pay and benefits with a supine Board that's beholden to them. I don't believe GM pays the economists and pay consultants of the UAW, at least not directly, but GM sure picks up the tab for Wagoner, Mullaly and Nardelli's advisors. This all is true across the board in American Big Capitalism. The rule of thumb here used to be that a CEO didn't make more than 50x more than the highest paid labor (and this is still true elsewhere in the world)--now it's on the order of 400x. The Feds shouldn't necessarily set arbitrary limits on executive pay but talk about hogs at the trough! I mean all of them.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:12 pm 
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Actually the ratio in wage disparity between CEO's and entry level workers in the US is approaching what it was in the days of the robber barons in 1929 just before the great depression. It will be very difficult at this point to avoid another depression. We are on the door step of it now.
An interesting analogy was made to a poker game in 1929. If you have ten players in a game who all start with a set amount and the game progresses to where two people have all of the money and the others start to borrow it is not sustainable. The game WILL stop. Well the game is about to stop.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:29 pm 
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Anytime management and union become intransigent the company is doomed to failure. A classic case is Eastern Airlines where Frank Borman/Frank Lorenzo (management) and Charlie Bryant (union) became such bitter enemies that compromise of any position became impossible.

Net result Eastern went bankrupt, employees lost their jobs, stockholders lost their investment. A lose, lose, lose proposition caused by individuals with more ego then brains.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:39 pm 
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The main point was, do we let the big 3 sink? That is not the case. The case is do we give them BIG BUCKs or let them go into chapter 11. Under Ch 11 the Big 3 do not sink, they get to restructure just like many of the airlines have. With the present track record of the sitting government, giving $$$ for a bailout is more risky than a crap shoot. My vote is let them file for Ch 11, then give help if needed.
I remember when we bailed out Chrysler years ago just to see it get gobbled up by MB then dropped by them later.

For those who want to blame the rank and file, I have a few questions

Who designs the vehicles the Big 3 make ?

Who Markets them?

Who makes the financial decisions that guides the companies?

Who sells the vehicles?

Who makes multiple millions while guiding a failing company?

Who has guided the big 3 from world dominance to the pits in 30 years?

Who has agreed to take on higher production rates to cover for pay raises and added employee costs?

The union emplioyees are responsible for the last item only.

Irish Drifter - remembering history is one of your strong points. I also like your humor.

Shamas O'Dognasty
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Last edited by Shamas on Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:00 pm 
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Shamas, I do not know the answers to your questions. However, one thing that I have observed is that when an industry paradigm needs to shift, the vision for that change almost always comes from outsiders with fresh ideas and not being bound to the notion of "we've always done it this way".

On a pessimistic note, the US auto market share has declined to the point that all three cannot survive, perhaps two with luck, vision, and total reinvention?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:39 pm 
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We should not even be using the internal combustion engine which is one hundred year old technology.
Look at how all of the other technology inside the car has changed over the decades with GPS, I pods, ect. but the basic design and function of the engine has not. That is because the wealthy and powerful do not give up their wealth and power even with the huge consequences of oil wars, global warming and so on. Its time for something totally new and if American car companies fail and the bailout money is instead put into research and development it could be huge for us to develop the next model for transportation that can then spread globally and let the arabs have their sand and stop sending them 700 billion per year.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:16 am 
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The basic question I have is why the automakers and not all businesses? It's not like the automakers are just about to start turning out pollution and gas free cars, far from it. They basically have no plan and have made almost no plans for helping America be better off in the future. But they want money.

US automakers spend boatloads of money on paying pensions to their retirees and that's what is really at stake. But if they had invested in the future, and let the way, maybe they would be making money hand over fist.

One thing is for sure, when I hear Pelosi, Reid, and Barney Frank are involved in this thing I know it stinks to high heaven. Bend over people.


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