www.CostaRicaTicas.com

Whatza mattah, ID, you can dish it out, but you can't take it? You're always busting someone's balls around here about one thing or the other with rarely even a hint of humor about it. OTOH, I was clearly just razzing you with my casual reference to a character who has been a frequent subject of humor around here. And if it wasn't clear enough, I even added a "Razz" emoticon to make it even clearer (which, btw, you conveniently left out when you quoted me). I thought that should have been clear enough to anyone but the most thin-skinned or humorless of people. Apparently, I was wrong.

It was all just a frigging joke. I wasn't "insinuating" anything. In no way did I ever mean to seriously imply you were getting kickbacks, but I'm sorry that you erroneously INFERRED that. In fact, as you yourself noted, my comment that you were NOT asking anyone to mention anything that would indicate you were the one referring them pretty much precludes that possibility that you were singing Chen's praises just to make a buck or save some money.

Despite all that, I found it very curious how your last post regarding Chen (prior to this thread) mentioned; SEVERAL friends who had problems with Chen; speculation that the man might be suffering from Parkinson's disease (a dentist approaching your mouth with a shaky drill is hardly a comforting thought) and that you were WITHDRAWING your previous recommendations. All that and now you were suddenly recommending him again with no mention at all about your previous reservations and why those had gone away.

Besides flipping back and forth on Chen, I also find it curious how you normally take it upon yourself to recommend Dr Chen every chance you get. A quick search found that of the 112 posts mentioning Chen's name nearly a quarter of them are by you. That is hardly a number remotely approaching the sort of promotion that was done by Badabutthead, but it is still a goodly number considering that dentistry is not the main subject of this forum. Again, I'm not insinuating anything other than you really really like this guy. Okay, we get it. However, as long as you keep posting his praises. Someone else will need to post the countervailing view that puts it into perspective.

You like to mention all the guys who you've referred to Dr. Chen who have been happy as a means to buttress your claim. I'll admit that there are many guys who have had no problems with Chen. However, there are also plenty of others who HAVE, including one, Scubabum, who HAD been one of the pro-Chen chorus UNTIL his dental work suddenly went very bad. I, too, would have been happy with Chen's work if the filling he did hadn't fallen out on my flight home and I would have continued to be obliviously happy until months or even a year or two later when the dental caries (decay) that he had missed and buried under that filling would have reared up again probably necessitating an expensive root canal. I'm sure that maybe 9 out 10 guys that go to Chen might have no IMMEDIATE problems, particularly if they go for more routine procedures like simple cleanings, but, unless that is all you're having done, with all the possible consequences do you really want to take the chance that you'll wind up being that 10th guy? I know I don't when there are so many other dentists in CR with equally affordable "tico pricing".

The so called "frequent subject of humor" is neither frequent or known to about 80% of this board. And the inclusion of hardly masks your true intention.





I know it is the political season but we are not politicians here so you can not expect us to accept your use of political tricks. You know the one where you make a scurrilous charge and later retract it. Everyone remembers the charge not the retraction. The addition of " erroneously INFERRED" into your sorry just reinforces the understanding of your true intent in your original post.



Yes you are, once again insinuating something. The use of the number of times I have written about Dr. Chen and once again the inclusion of a reference to Bada Bing clearly is an attempt to show some sort of unholy alliance between Dr. Chen and myself. Please tell me what is wrong with recommending someone who, in my opinion, gives a quality service at an affordable price? Yes there are some who did not find that the case for them but they are clearly the minority. Show me a medical professional who has a 100% approval rating.


As to people posting differing opinions of Dr. Chen's professionalism and the quality of his work that is what a forum is about. Everyone should be free to post there opinion without someone insinuating there are ulterior motives to their opinion. Hopefully someday you will understand that and not make disingenuous comments when they recommend a service you found unsatisfactory.

_________________
Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

If 80% of the board is not familiar with the BadaBing story then that 80% has no idea what was even meant by my "soprano discount" comment. So what are you so upset about? As for the other 20%, who ARE familiar with that old story, probably everyone except for you could see the humor in my remark. All that the 20% means is that it is what is known as an "inside joke". You have heard of those, haven't you? I'll admit that how frequent a joke it might be could be questioned but it is hardly uncommon.

And as for the inclusion of emoticon hardly masking my "true intention". A) How do you presume to know my true intention any more than I could presume to know your intention for promoting Dr. Chen so vigorously? Do you want to talk about being hypocritical. And B) if it didn't mask anything and was so irrelevant then why did you choose to selectively omit it when you were quoting me?

Re: your analogy to political tickery. Huh? I have no idea what you're talking about or see any comparison, mainly because there was never anything for me to retract. I stand completely by my original comments as they were really intended. If anyone will remember the "scurrilous charge" (as you call it), it will only be because you provided YOUR interpretation of what was meant by it and then made such a big deal about it. BTW, another type political trickery is taking something someone says and spinning it so it sounds like he is saying the exact opposite, which is what you're doing with me.

I NEVER said or even IMPLIED you were taking bribes and never even privately considered that as a real possibility. For YOU to say I specifically did requires you to KNOW my intent, which you CAN'T. I've since provided a very plausible alternate explanation of what I really meant, which was NOTHING at all. I simply made a JOKE, mocking you alittle bit perhaps, but still just a joke. If you continue to not believe me when I say that, then that is YOUR problem not mine, but I was not being disingenuous when I say I'm sorry you have such problems understanding any of this. Like you say, maybe someday you will.

YOU chose to INTERPRET my comment the way you did and to take it too seriously. How does saying that reinforce anyone else's understanding of my "true" intent other than for you? Now, your logical reasoning. I suggest you study the difference between "imply" and "infer". One indicates the intent of the speaker. The other refers to the interpretation by the listener. The person making the error here is definitely the latter.

Re: my additionaly reference to Badabing. A) as before, my only reference to Badabing is to say you're NOT anywhere near him in number of posts. And B) this time I even deliberately and specifically say I'm NOT insinuating anything and yet YOU still insist I am. How much clearer do I have to make it? So how does that attempt to show any sort of "unholy alliance" between you and Dr. Chen like he had with the Morazon?

OTOH, the number of posts you've made on Chen IS highly notable and does suggest that you must really really like this guy. I really like eating at Mariscar and have recommended it to others, but you don't see me making over 2 dozen posts about it. In fact, you don't usually see anyone else on this board other than yourself making that many posts about just one place or service. That implies to me, excuse me, I infer from that your appreciation of this guy goes beyond the norm. Again, by saying this I'm NOT implying any sinister ulterior motive on your part. I completely take you at your word that your only motive is that you like the guy, are happy with his work and want to help him and others out by steering them his way. And there is nothing wrong with that. I'm happy for you. I'm just tired of hearing about it so many times when I believe just as passionately that it is a bum steer.

You ask what is wrong with recommending someone you like? By itself? nothing at all. That is completely your right just as, like you acknowledged, it is my right and the rights of everyone else here to express their opinions as well. However, the sheer number of times you've recommended this guy is also a relevant and valid issue, because it can have the effect of drowning out those countervailing views and making it SEEM like the guy is more universally admired then he might really be. If there is any sinister ulterior motive, then that is it, but that suggests that you're even aware of what you're doing which I don't think you are. I think it is that you're simply intolerant of anyone who has views different from your own. Any way, THAT is why I brought up the subject of the number of your posts (as well as the obviously hyperbolic joke comparing it to Badabing, who was known for his volume of posts as much as his shilling). To counterbalance with one long post what you've posted in dozens.

There are some who did not find Dr Chen to provide the quality of service that you say he can be relied upon to provide. Are they a minority? Perhaps. Clearly? Not that clear. They're at the very least a sizable and statistically significant minority. You're correct that it is rare that a medical professional has a 100% approval rating. But most of us prefer to go to one that is as close to that as possible. There is a big difference between 99% and 90% when one is talking about one's health. How many of the active posters on this board have gone to Dr. Chen and written about it? There have been only 112 posts (a little bit more now). A sizable chunk of that has been repeat posts by you. There have also been a smaller number of repeat posts by myself and a few others. And much of the rest has been by members who hadn't been to him but were asking for more info. So the sample pool is very small but much larger (and random) than the 3 repeat (and thus more likely loyal Chen followers) that you "surveyed". Let's say a dozen guys have been to Chen and reported back on their experiences and lets suppose that most of those guys reported back favorably or at least neutrally (meaning they weren't necessarily aware of any problems with his service YET). At least one of the initially "favorables" (scubabum), came back later and reported serious problems that weren't immediately apparent when he posted his initial positive review. And without doing an exact count, at LEAST 3-4 members out of the presumed dozen, reported unfavorable. Is that a minority? Of course. Is it statistically a larger number than I'd recommend chancing on a major dental procedure? And it is a large enough percentage that I wouldn't try to squelch the reports or else pooh pooh them like they didn't mean anything at all and try to make them sound like that they were just the typical rare problems that even the best doctors get.

A typical Prolijo response. Post 7000 words when 70 would suffice.You seem to follow he principle throw enough garbage against the wall and some of it will stick. Your tactic here seems to be throw enough words into a post an people will becomes so entwined with the irrelevant data they will forget what the initial matter was.

You say you insinuated nothing and I say you did and I guess those who reads this thread can make their own mind up on who is correct.

I know what I get for recommending Dr. Chen as do the board members who have used his services. You can go on believing anything you want.

_________________
Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

I'd summarize it more like this:

1) I wasn't insinuating anything.

2) I'm the only who really knows what I meant by my comment.

3) It was just a frigging joke, nothing more.

4) You erroneously inferred what you think my meaning was, because you have an incredibly thin-skin

5) I never even thought for one moment that you were actually getting anything special from Dr. Chen for recommending him, that concept came only from your misreading of my post.

6) YOU can go on believing anything YOU want.
_______________

That's somewhat over 70, at 89 words, but still 25 less than yours . I may sometimes use 7000 words but at least I haven't made 7000 posts or take it upon myself in much of those 7000 posts to correct and criticize everyone else, Mr Forum Correction Cop. If you're going to dish it out all the time, you should be prepared to accept similar treatment in response.

If this exchange has resulted in your adopting a new writing style similar to the quoted text then maybe you just made it all worthwhile.

Well not really, impugning someones ethics can never be considered acceptable. Let me see did I imply or infer that. Dam where is that dictionary when you need it?

(Just a little message for you in all that. You can put 100 emoticons in an attack post and they do not change the intent of the message. So add all the you want I still understood you were inferring/implying, DAM WHERE IS THAT #@*&@# DICTIONARY, that I was getting kickbacks from Dr. Chen)

_________________
Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

You know, having now proven that I have the ability to start a thread, which can inspire such passion and in-depth conversation, I'm beginning to feel like "one of the boys". Thanks for the warm welcome, fellows

I was not inferring or impling anything at all with that emo thingy, and my intentions are all good.

11 more days before I leave and I've never looked forward to a dental appt. so much in my life.

Pura Vida

_________________
Don't blame me, I can't help it! I'm just CRAZY about Beaver, and I remain Fraternally yours;
Best Regards,
GI Joe

PS: Who ever dreamed it would feel so good to be the hunted, instead of the Hunter. Pura Vida!!!!

This thread, along with many others, has just reinforced for me my belief that men will attempt to turn their judgment into data no matter what.

What is it about men that they have to feel their judgment is absolutely right?

My judgment isn't right, even about what I just said above isn't right, nor is it worng, it is just my judgment. It can never be right, nor wrong, because it is my judgement, not data.

If some of you do not agree with this, I'm O.K. with that. I do not see the need for all of the verbage to try and make judgement data.

Health & happiness to all....

Steve - Santas Bro

_________________
It's not the size of the wand that put the rabbit in the hat, it's the magic in it!!!

I thought ID was no longer recommending Dr. Chen. It's all so confusing. Anyone have other dentista recommendations besides Chen or Sanchez?

_________________

Living well is the best revenge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwUtj_YnNoY

It's posting battles like these that keep a lot of people from posting.

My experience with Dr. Chen was less than impressive. He put a filling on top of existing decay which later had to be redone. He did not take any X-Rays. Although he is a very nice person, I wouldn't let him work on my cat's teeth.

Dental care is a very important matter. I learned that I do not want someone "butchering" on my teeth. A good dental plan is a lifelong matter.

Steve,
This dispute was not about judgment, at least not about Dr. Chen. ID has found his services to work out very well for him and I'm not disputing that. I had a very different experience and I don't think that ID is disputing that either. ID anecdotally cites many other guys who have been very satisfied with Dr. Chen, which again I don't dispute. OTOH, I can also cite a number of other guys who share my assessment of Dr. C, which ID in turn has not disputed. So far no disagreement. ID goes on to counterargue that no service provider is going to satisfy 100% of his customers, which I agree is absolutely true. I would counter back that there is still good and bad doctors and some point between 0 and 100% where the odds become unacceptable, but more on that in a minute. And, finally, ID and I both agree that everyone has the right to express their opinion, which we both have.

The only real bone of contention here is entirely seperate from the question of whether Dr. Chen is a good dentist or not. ID insists that I had maliciously intended to malign him by suggesting that he was taking some sort of kickback from Dr. Chen for recommending him to others. IMHO, EITHER baselessly accusing another member of taking kickbacks (ASSUMING I had), OR baselessly charging someone else of making such an accusation, is a very serious matter and in violation of the Forum Code of Conduct. However, even if one could misread my post like ID has done, I think I've made it painfully clear in all my subsequent posts that was NEVER my intent and couldn't be further from the truth.

I've said over and over that it was just a frigging joke and that I didn't mean anything by it. Over night, I've even thought back on what I was thinking when I made my post and whether I might have somehow subconsciously been saying something other than what I meant. My conclusion: No way. The main joke was the obvious hyberbole comparing the number of times that ID posted his promotion of Dr. Chen to the number of times Bada posted about the Morazon. Clearly, ID could never match Bada on that score, though he still clearly has posted an exceptional number of times on Dr. Chen at nearly a quarter of all such posts and 4 times more than anyone else. And ID certainly surpasses Bada, and anyone else for that matter, in sheer number of total posts. So the sheer number of ID's total posts is as valid a subject of making fun of as the sheer size of some of my individual posts. And you don't see me whining when people do that, in fact I often poke fun at myself about it. Besides, ID really has not complained at all about that part of it. The problem came from my line about his NOT telling guys to ask for a "Soprano Discount", which he incorrectly interpreted as sarcasm suggesting he really was. Thinking back on it, the reason I included that line at all was just an afterthought, because I didn't want him to think my comparison of his prolific posting extended to his doing it for reasons similar to Badabing's.

There it is once again, explained yet another way.

I would NEVER pretend to KNOW ID's intent, and I challenge anyone to show me where I have tried to turn my "judgment" of his intent into "data" as he has done with his judgment of mine. I have no idea why ID insists on continuing to promote this guy just 2 months after he himself speculated that he might be suffering from Parkinson's disease (he is easily the most jittery guy I've met in a long time) and after several reported problems by other board members led him to WITHDRAW his previous recommendations. Although I understandably at least find it quite curious why he has flip-flopped on the issue. But he clearly has his personal right to change his mind back and forth on this as many times as he wants, for whatever his reasons. And I'm quite ready to accept that when he is recommending the guy he does so purely because he likes his services. I've NEVER thought otherwise. The problem here is that ID insistently presumes to KNOW my intent and he is plainly WRONG.
-----------

Back on topic, I've never suggested that by going to Dr. Chen something bad will DEFINTELY happen to you. Many guys go to Dr. Chen and have walked away perfectly satisfied (as does also happen with many other Tico dentists). I've even said that, if all you need to have is done is something routine like a tooth cleaning, then any "risk" of going to Dr. Chen is probably very small. The "data" on more complex procedures is more debatable. There are clearly those who recommend Dr. Chen based on their positive experiences and there are those who don't based on their negative ones. I wouldn't dismiss those positive experiences because if most outcomes weren't favorable then the guy should clearly be locked up or have his license revoked, let alone not be recommended. Most outcomes are likely to be at least adequate. However, I also believe that those who recommend Dr. Chen AND dismiss the negative reports as just isolated occurrences should reconsider.

Hopefully most of you are familiar with the concept in healthcare of "clusters". That is when some condition occurs in an area with greater frequency than might be expected statistically by mere random occurence. For example, cancers occur naturally in the population at so many cases per thousand but have been found in far greater numbers among those living near say a toxic waste dump. Not everyone living near those dumps necessarily get cancer but a statistically percentage that is larger than what would be expected in the general population does. With a healthcare provider, you might expect complaints to occur in 1 out of a hundred patients. Maybe a little more or maybe a little less. but certainly the vast majority of the patients you'd expect to be reasonably satisfied. What number of active CRT posters have been to Dr. Chen? Maybe 100? Fewer still that have posted about it. The majority of those may have been fairly happy with his work. But if even 4-5 reported major problems (and like I said above, those are just the ones who have posted about it, so we don't know how many other problems have occurred). O might add for comparison, that I haven't seen even one negative review of Dra. Yailie Sanchez. To me the number of negative reports on Dr. Chen seems much larger than chance or the sort of complaints that you'd expect any doctor to routinely get. That is not "data" in the sense that there is some magic point where that greater incidence than chance (which DOES seem to me to be "data") becomes so great that one shouldn't take the risk, but it is my personal "judgment" that point has been reached with Dr. Chen. The rest of you can play craps with your dental health if you want to. Ask yourselves this: If you could buy a house near a toxic waste dump just because it was really really cheap and the VAST majority of others living near it didn't seem to get cancer right away, would you still buy it?

Paco,
If you read back to my initial post your will see that ID's surprising (and contradictory) flip flop was my primary point as well. It is all so confusing. You also probably missed in all my "excess verbiage" as well as all the catterwailing that followed my mention of another dentista that has been recommended - Dra. Susanah Zomer. Sorry, I have no personal experience with her.

Icantstayaway,
I'm sorry that I drowned you out, but your simple straightforward and to the point post backs up my basic point that Dr. Chen service quality is just too (apparently) inconsistent to take any chance on something as important as one's dental health. Your experience of his failing to take any x-rays and filling in over existing decay exactly mirrors my own experience with him, so it is hard to see such reports as just isolated incidents.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I just can't resist mentioning a post ID made back in March when he had a similar over-reaction to some leg-pulling that was done at that time by ZMan (thanks to an unnamed fellow member for bringing this to my attention):Now he's saying practically the exact opposite with this quote:I guess his position on Dr. Chen is not the only one that shifts with the vagaries of the moment. Nor is this the first time or me the first person that he has had similar issues with. And yet he has taken it upon himself to police and correct every little mistake that everyone else on this board has made. IMHO, if he can't take a little heat then he should stop dishing it out himself.

Thanks for mentioning Dra. Zomer, I had to chuckle at this thread since it reminded me my similar "disagreement" with ID. Yes with him it is an exercise in futility to argue and a double standard when it come to attempts at humor. I'm not going to waste time looking it up but it's basically the same self righteous scenario -my joke was met with a personal attack yet it was the same joke he had posted earlier and considered funny. Also noticing how a certain someone never even acknowledged the State of the Union thread to me shows how big someone's ego is that can never admit being wrong or at fault for anything. Now I'll resume ignoring and avoiding that person's posts.

I made an agreement with myself to try not to "fight" with anyone over anything when I moved to CR about 2.5 years ago.

That is why I waited a few months to report my bad experience with Dr. Chen. My one little negative post against 22 positive from someone else seemed futile.