www.CostaRicaTicas.com

Prolijo,

I’ve always enjoyed the depth of information you bring to your postings and this one is no exception. I’ve been digging for a while into many of the same aspects (bus routes, living expenses, distance and temps, etc.) you’ve generously laid out here. I’ve been planning my tour days for awhile and had not come up with near the info you’ve offered. I’ll take what you’ve laid out and finalize my plans now; gracias un millón. I know other seekers will be referencing your post for quite a while.

I’d already decided to add the 12th as a possible third tour day for any areas I was particularly focused on after the first go rounds. And as you suggested, I thought I’d take buses rather than a driver on the 12th to see how the distance felt and to allow more walkabout time.

Language retention is not my strong suit, but I feel I could quickly put to acceptable use my on-going language study once I develop the ear for it. I’m at that point now where normal speech no longer sounds like noise and usually I can discern the nature of the conversation, even if I can’t participate. Of course, I know there will always be those voices that will always sound like noise. I even know a couple of native English speakers that I have some difficulty following sometimes. As far as the number of gringos around, yes it would be good to have a couple, but I have no desire to live in a gringo barrio for many reasons; not the least of which is cost. I’m accustomed to a warmer/more humid climate, even sans a/c, but have no desire to live close to the coast. I think some of the warmer areas you mentioned will suit me fine. Los barrios cerca de la parque de las palomas muertas sounds particularly inviting. I had a big smile reading that one. Yo podría tener más en común con el coots viejo, (hope that’s close to being correct) than I care to think about soon. Thank God, the eagle still screams once in a while.

I don’t plan to immediately get a car (if ever), so all things considered, I plan on looking for a reasonably safe and stable barrio in a predominantly, middle-class/working class tico area with maybe a decent bar/soda/parque meeting/hanging place and a small grocery store and pharmacia within reasonable walking distance, as well as, at least hourly bus service to SJ or some other shopping area. I’ve lived in small towns and rural areas my entire life, so semi rural areas in CR are an appeal and not a negative to me. I figure if I take reasonable precautions about time of day, outward appearances and limited language barriers and such, that I can live in most areas of CR with few problems. This is totally doable from what I’ve seen of the areas so far. As for female companionship, professional or private, I figure that’ll take care of itself; que sera sera and is way down on my list of immediate needs. The first step to all of this, of course, is to narrow the scope, like I’m doing in May, to make it the best fit that I can.

If you come up with that lost link you mentioned, I’d still like to see it, and again, gracias un millón. If we ever cross paths, I owe you a few.

Mac

_________________
The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the absence but in the mastery of his passions.
Alfred Lord Tennyson
English poet (1809 - 1892)

Damn guys... between the time I read Prolijo's chapter and the time I got back to write and post my thanks to him, you all came up with even more great info and great ideas that I hadn't read when I responded to him. I never expected this quality of input on the subject. My thanks to all.

I doubt I can add much to the info you guys are offering here because the YMMV factor is so strong on this subject, but when I return, I'll put my findings into some readable format to share as well.

This will only be my 4th CR trip in 2 years. I'm stayng at Hotel Dona Ines and the Sportsmen's a portion of my time in CR and will be in close proximity to the DR on a few late afternoons in early May. I'd like to stop by happy hour to say hello and offer a shout. Is this something that's still being done?

_________________
The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the absence but in the mastery of his passions.
Alfred Lord Tennyson
English poet (1809 - 1892)

OSG,

There's a Happy Hour being planned for 5/8, but it looks like you'll just miss that.

I will be at SL when you're there. Feel free to shout. I'm not much help on the subject at hand, but we'd all love to hear your input while you're there and when you get back.

Archie

Prolijo

Thanks for providing a lot of great imformation. It is very appreciated.

_________________
"You will never run out of good things because there is more than enough to go around. Life is meant to be abundant"
____________________________________________________________________

OSG,
If you like things a little warmer than SJ and don't mind being a little further out in a more rural community, then I think you really need to check out Atenas. It is at a slightly lower elevation closer to the coast but is still definitely up in the mountains and still closer to SJ than the coast. The lower elevation means much warmer temperatures than SJ but definitely not as hot and humid as it gets in some place like Jaco.

Heredia is very nice too and, as you know, high on my list, but you should be aware it is NOT one of the warmer areas I was referring to (or at least no hotter than SJ). In fact, the LESSER developed areas outside the city center tend to be on the north side of town heading up the slopes towards Barva and thus actually tend to be cooler than SJ which is in the floor of the valley (higher elevations also equal fresher air, although smog is not a problem once you get out as far as Atenas). The areas on the other side of Heredia going towards and along the north side of the PAH are naturally more thickly settled (part of the sprawl that extends from SJ out to the airport in Alajuela). If you want to find someplace with a big yard or maybe even a little finca with fruit trees and such, then you're probably more likely to find that on the Barva or San Rafael side of town and that area also might be a little cooler. If you don't care about a big yard, but would like someplace a little more upscale consider San Joaquin between Heredia and Alajuela (also closer to the airport and the Cariari country club). And if you want something that is closer to SJ consider Santo Domingo. From what I've read there aren't as many gringos that actually live inside the city center of Heredia itself and I'm not sure they have "barrios" the same way that SJ does (unless by "barrios" you mean the outlying villages). After all, the whole city proper is only 15X15 blocks.

BTW, here are some detailed maps of the some of the city centers that you'll be visiting. You might want to print them out since they're actually more detailed than most CR paper maps I've seen.
http://www.maptak.com/cr/her/c-her.html
http://www.maptak.com/cr/car/c-car.html
http://www.maptak.com/cr/ala/c-ala.html
Just bear in mind that the heart of the commercial center of each city you visit may not be the place you'll want to be. A 1-2 km walk or bike ride away from the center of town often takes you out into areas that are much less urbanized

Prolijo,

I was sitting here doing my homework on this subject when your map message came in. My use of "gringo barrios" was just my way of playing with words; an example of one of the limitations of text communications, but thanks for wanting to clarify.

I've ridden through some of the areas you've mentioned during other trips on the way to restaurants and the such, but had no clue which was which and wasn't really paying attention at the time. Every once in awhile we'd go through an area and I knew immediately that it would make a possible rental/staging area but never took notes and relied on my memory; MISTAKE.

In December "05", during my 2nd trip, my plans got unexpectedly scrubed, so I and another CRT/CR newbie whose diving plans had also gotten canceled hired Juan Carlos from the SL to drive us into the countryside for a few days. No plans, no destinations, just headed north towards Arenal where we spent the first night. It was the most relaxing vacation I'd had in ages. I'd recommend trying it to anyone. The La Fortuna area around Arenal has some of the best air I've ever breathed. Every breath was full of life. And no, I wasn't toking at the time. Arenal still remains high on my list, but I didn't want to limit myself by renting that far away. We drove around that endless lake and headed on up north via the main highway (dodging potholes and swerving cars, bikes and buses almost the whole way, the Andretti boys have nothing on Juan Carlos) and then over to Playa del Coco for a night (plenty of nightlife there for those interested, both pro and non-pro) and then down along the coastal backroads south back towards SJ. Eating full meals for $1.10 in tiny sodas out in the middle of nowhere and staying in $17 motels a stone's throw from the beach may not be everyone's idea of a good time, but it certainly opened my eyes to the possibilities of CR if you make the effort to get out of SJ.

As far as my wants, yes I like a little space. I've already dropped from 75 to 30 to 4 acres in the last 30 years and would not want to rub shoulders with my neighbors, no matter how much I liked them. One acre should be about right if it's situated well and more if it's not. I'll be renting for as long it takes to find that right acre with or without a home on it.

Enough said for now. I want to take a look at the maps you provided. Nine days and counting. Thanks again for all the help.

Mac

_________________
The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the absence but in the mastery of his passions.
Alfred Lord Tennyson
English poet (1809 - 1892)

Greengo,

Are you saying the land price was $130 per acre?

Pro,

What would you expect to see (generalization, I know) for land prices in some of the areas you mentioned?

Anyone else chime in.

Do tell.

Greengo, you may speak english but it is not the kind any of the rest of us speak. The purpose of language is to communicate, not obfuscate with magniloquence. Why can't you just say things in terms everyone can understand?

OSG, first off, I believe GG's main point was not the price per se but the fact that there is often a HUGE discrepancy between the price they charge ticos and the prices they ask for and often get from ignorant gringos when they advertise on the net or through gringo real estate agencies. In other words, the markup is even more ridiculous than when some newbie pays cien in the HDR/BM.

One should also note that in the second instance he said HECTARES not acres. For those unfamiliar with the metric system, a hectare is 10000 square meters (~1 yd) which actually equates to just under 2.5 acres. So the real comparison, assuming his numbers were true was between $130 and $285 per acre. So, its not quite as bad as he made it sound but it is bad. I've GENERALLY figured on a gringo markup of about 30-50% over the real tico price, but I'm sure there are a few REALLY ignorant gringos who stupidly overpay even more than that. But 120%? That takes some really amazing stupidity. OTOH, best case scenario, I wouldn't count on any gringo managing to get away with just the real tico price unless he were a) really lucky, b) really smart and/or c) really well connected. At best, you can at least keep them from picking your pockets dry, but you'll still pay SOME premium. The best way to do that is to avoid gringo intermediaries like the plague (that includes english language websites and gringo RE agents looking to use you to finance their tico retirement) and find a tico you can really TRUST to use as your initial go between. BTW, did you know that in CR RE Agents and lawyers can represent BOTH sides in a dispute? The rules are not the same down there. Be very very careful. Start by taking the ARCR seminar to educate yourself about the major potential pitfalls.

Now, actual prices? I wouldn't really know until I really started looking around but I'd be surprised if you could still find any land in the Atenas area for only $130/acre any more. Just to show you how bad it has gotten here is a copy of one ad from supereconomicos:That is ~1.75 acres and $425K DOLLARS not colones!!! Muy loco! Now that is off of a website, albeit a spanish language site, and the land is improved (graded, all service connections, water, electicity, sewer, telephone, cable and internet), but $425K for just a plot of land? I'm guessing it must be in a new gringo subdivision. Also, building in CR is cheaper than the US but subject to all sorts of delays and irritations (even more so than with US contractors).

If you want lots of space (multiple hectares) at affordable prices then you probably aren't going to find it in the Central Valley in places that are already well known to other gringos. The Fortuna/Arenal area that you liked so much has also become a booming area highly popular with gringos. For what you want, you'll probably be better off looking in areas like Nuevo Arenal on the back side of the lake. Its a very beautiful area, albeit extremely remote, but it is largely undiscovered by many gringos (so far).

As irritating as I find Greengo's prose, I think he may be right that the bloom is off the rose as to CR being the ideal for an affordable destination. That place I jokingly mentioned earlier in SJdS is starting to sound better and better. Of course, they have their own problems in those other countries too.

First, on those land prices I'd bet he got that off Title Registry info. The prices shown there are NOT real...LOL. For example, I'm looking at a property now. The Registro National entry says "VALOR FISCAL: 1,100,000.00 COLONES" That'd be $2,200 right? Well, this place is up for sale for almost $300K and it's not a bad deal. And yes, I've been looking at this paticular market for the last year. And it's not a real old registry entry as the property was last sold in 2006.
Got another idea for you for an affordable and nice place to consider. I spend a lot of time in San Ramon. It's a beautiful city 1 1/2 hours by bus from San Jose. It has all the things you are looking for.
First, the hospital is very good with short lines and good staff. Spent some time there when my girl was in for three weeks. There are also a LOT of doctors/lawyers/dentists etc.
Second, the climate is incredible much like the Arenal area.
Third, the prices are very cheap. A pretty nice home can be had for $50K in town or much less depending on how 'tico' you want to go. I looked at one with 7 bedrooms for $70K that was quite nice. In the country, land is very inexpensive. I don't remember exact prices but I can give you some links by PM if you wish.
Fourth, it has a lot of 'luxury' stuff. There is a small mall complete with a first-run cinema, a food court with American fast food, upscale clothing stores and even a maxi-bodega which is really just a Wal-Mart just like back home.
Fifth, the downtown area is amazing. Hundreds of different shops like a small city of the 1950s in the states. Butcher, baker, hardware store etc. are all concentrated in a small central area.
Sixth, the people are incredible and the girls amazing. Walk the central park on Sunday and do try to keep your jaw from hanging wide open.
Seventh, it is a pretty safe place with little real crime.
Eighth, it's easy to get to San Jose, Punteranas, Arenal and other places easily and the local bus/taxi service is first rate. They have taxi companies there that are actually cheaper than a meter. Cheap enough instead of going out at 11pm for cigs/beer we just called the cab company and had it delivered to us for the receipt cost plus about what a meter run would have cost.
Ninth, the night life can be fun. There isn't a whole lot of it but some very nice local bars with some music and dancing. Nothing in the pay of P4P or strip clubs. Spent a lot of nights in the local bars and enjoyed it.
Tenth, if education is any concern, the schools are very good all the way to a large branch of the University of Costa Rica.
Yes, as you can tell, I like the place. Has a lot of the great things you are looking for with less of the hassles. Hope the info helps and if you need more, PM me...

_________________
The only thing that matters is happiness in all it forms...

What I'm trying to file away for future reference is whether we're talking closer to the $130/Acre, or the $250,000.00/Acre.

$130/Acre may not be achievable, but does that mean it should be more like $400? Or is it closer to what you would hear like in the ad for the lot in Gringoville for $450,000.00?

Prostoner, I appreciate the info on the houses. Very informative. I know they're much more in SJ. Do you know about land prices?

Excellent point, Prostoner! I couldn't figure out what was up with those prices that GG was quoting or whether he as just spouting off through his ear. I forgot all about the games everyone plays, ticos and gringos alike, when it comes to recording their land sales (and should have remembered that). The real money is always done under the table to avoid paying taxes. Any "eye rolling and chortling" in tico courts was probably as much about that as anything else or maybe that is what GG meant. Again, with pretentious and obscure way he always writes, who the heck can tell what he is trying to say.

Of course, OTOH, the gringo premium that so many ticos manage to get out of so many of us gringos does get a lot of eye rolling and dropped jaws by so many ticos, who had been and to a certain extent still are used to paying much more reasonable prices. Any laughing is only done on the way to the bank by those who make the sale. For the ticos who are left behind it is more of a mixed bag. Sure, on the one hand, there is the shock and amusement about the ridiculous sums the gringos pay. But, OTOH, there is also the fact that to a certain extent those same ticos now have to compete with those same gringos for the choice properties if they want to buy any. Hold on to your ancestral land if you've still got it because you'd never be able to afford if you went to buy it today or else join the other side of the land rush and cash out by selling to a gringo and moving to a cheap apartment in the city. Of course, the ticos know what the land is "really" worth or at least used to be worth before the gringos started bidding up prices and they know how far they can bargain down (or try to). But that will only take them so far. If you were a landowner and had the choice of selling to a tico for $50K or to a gringo for $100K which would you choose. I'm sure the prices are way up for ticos too, at least in the areas that gringos have discovered.

To try to answer Archie's question, I suspect, as with most things the truth lies somewhere in between. Certainly not $130/acre. I'd think that even $400/acre is now unheard of except perhaps in the more remote parts of CR. The $425K is the ridiculous other extreme that one could get only from some gringo in the most populat parts of CR. So which is the more usual price closer to? The lower end of course, just not all the way at that end. I'd think 4 digits or even well into the 5 digit range for the mre popular areas, certainly not 3. OTOH, I think one would have to be either independently wealthy or certifiably insane to go into the 6 digit range for an empty lot in CR, I don't care if it is beachfront property or does have a "million dollar" view. However, what ever you file away for future reference, don't file it away for too long. It wasn't so long ago that prices were much much less in places like Atenas or even in Escazu.

Here is another thought. I don't think there is the same premium for developed land over empty lots that there would be in the states. Keep in mind that building here is relatively cheap. What you're going to be paying for as much as anything else is location, location, location. If you want something custom built to your specifications and tastes, then go the empty lot route. Just bear in mind that building in CR brings its own share of headaches and the savings by the time you get done over simply buying a lot and building that is already there won't be nearly as much as you might hope.

As prostoner said, if you go to a less marquee location, ie further out of the central valley but not in a hot bed like Atenas, someplace that has been there all along and is just chugging right along like it always has (or at least hasn't yet caught up with the RE bandwagon as much), places such as San Ramon or Nuevo Arenal, then more typical tico prices can still be found. Those $50K and $70K prices are for homes that are pretty decent even by US standards, though not the luxury playhouses that so many gringos have set-up for themselves in various parts of CR. Tico prices for much more basic accomodations can go for half as much or even lower. By why should most gringos go the cinderblock cell on a quarter acre route when there is no reason they should have to. After all if you can't afford a $50K home then maybe you aren't really ready for retirement.

BTW, I've run into a bunch of gringos who are equally sold on San Ramon, so maybe that is the next big thing and the time to act is now before the land rush really begins in earnest THERE. One big advantage it has over Atenas if you plan to take buses around CR is that it is right off the PAH, so there are buses back to the capital of SJ all the time, that stop off there (from Liberia or anywhere else in NW CR)

As for some of the thoughts mentioned:

I actually understand about 75% of Greengo's pros. It's sort of like listening to a spanish conversation and only getting a portion of it. The difference is, someday I'll understand more spanish.

I've followed prices in CR from several sources for three years now. I quickly learned to disregard the majority of the info from many web sites and eventually did not refernce them at all. A general rule I have is that if the RE site is too sleek and is clearly designed for only english speakers, the info on it is not worth retaining. One of the reasons for my touring those areas is to locate the source of the best tico land info from them. Be it locale publications or corkboard listings. I'm familiar with the land measure and metric conversions. I'm aware of the differences in RE agency laws in CR and attorney codes of conduct and representation rules. I won't make any lawyer jokes, but let's just say I like to know the answer before I ask the question. I plan to use the two attorney rule, no matter who recommends them. I have a non-pro, business-professional tica (language exchange partner I met online two years ago) to do any negotiating for me after I locate a place. If I were to want to buy today, I would expect to be able to get a decent 3/1 or 3/2 on about an acre for about $45-75,000USD depending on what location I choose.

I'll make mistakes, I know, as any stranger living in a stange land will. But I plan to do my homework, move slowly and make as few as possible. I'd venture to say that if I'm renting in an area long enough and let my wants be known to enough locals, that the property will come to me.

Thanks for all the ideas and good advice from everyone; I could never have enough.

Mac

_________________
The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the absence but in the mastery of his passions.
Alfred Lord Tennyson
English poet (1809 - 1892)

The desire to avoid taxes by claiming a different price of sale is a tried and true tico way to save money but can confuse the issue sometimes.
As for houses, you can buy for just about any price. I even looked at a couple of very cheap houses (for my extortionist tica) and found some as cheap as $4K. They were NOT nice but goes to show, all price ranges are available, even in San Jose.
I too think San Ramon will be the next big thing in gringo retirement. Too close to San Jose to not be. I mean I can get from the airport to San Ramon in the same time it takes to get to the DR from the airport.
Here is a link to a good Tico site with realistic prices....but it's in spanish.
http://clasificados.co.cr/buscador_new.php
Craig's List is also pretty informative and you can find links to a lot of other real estate thru it's listings.
http://costarica.en.craigslist.org/
And the for-sale-by-owner site in CR
http://www.intertica.com/index.html
The double lawyer idea is a good one unless you are very sure of who you are dealing with. I've got a GREAT lawyer if you need a referal...

_________________
The only thing that matters is happiness in all it forms...

Prostoner (and anyone else interested in San Ramon), I came across this website on San Ramon that I think you might find interesting or useful.
http://www.sanramon-costarica.com

It was put together by an outfit called Paradise Management, which also has another site (www.costaricapm.com). I don't know what axe they have to grind. Obviously, they probably would like to promote their own services as a real estate business on that other site. However, their San Ramon guide seems to be fairly honest and unbiased (except to the extent that they may already be biased towards the San Ramon area in general). In fact, it actually has a disclaimer on the bottom of their site in big bold red letters. "THE San Ramon Guide was created by Paradise Management. We do not receive any financial compensation from any businesses listed in this guide." That is an honesty and forthrightness that I wish there were more of by these various real estate companies.

I would say keep this info under your hat, lest the word get out on this area, but I'm afraid that is already happening. Here is a quote from that other site:
"After years of mild real estate demand, prices have just begun to go up fueled by foreign investors. They come for the small city atmosphere that is friendly yet full of activity. And they come for the natural beauty. Just 10 minutes from the center of town there are sweeping ocean views, lush green mountains, and farms with fruit and coffee."

There was another plus for this area that hasn't been mentioned. This area is an hour away from SJO (plus 30 minutes for SJ itself) and an hour away from the coast. Okay, that may have been already mentioned, but I don't think anyone said it is probably the area to go where you can actually see all the way down to the Pacific without having to pay expensive oceanfront prices or suffer coastal heat and humidity. I'm not so sure what sort of views you can get from Atenas.

The negative is that if you want the real estate bargains here you probably better work very fast since it seems prices are already starting to go up and IME when that starts to happen in any part of CR it quickly takes off like a snowball running downhill.