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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:48 pm 
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Is anyone else bothered by the fact that by pressuring girls to break safe sex protocol and give oral sex without condoms, that one is increasing her risk of getting AIDS... not from you personally but from someone else?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:51 pm 
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Mrpublic wrote:
Is anyone else bothered by the fact that by pressuring girls to break safe sex protocol and give oral sex without condoms, that one is increasing her risk of getting AIDS... not from you personally but from someone else?


Not much. The liklihood of HIV transmission during oral sex, based on my research, is about negligible.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:57 pm 
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Mrpublic wrote:
Is anyone else bothered by the fact that by pressuring girls to break safe sex protocol and give oral sex without condoms, that one is increasing her risk of getting AIDS... not from you personally but from someone else?


Actually, I'm kind of scratching my head wondering how a girl blowing me bareback increases her chance of getting AIDS from someone else ... :?:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:04 pm 
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I think that you have better chance of getting hit by a comet than catching AIDS via blowjobs. Has there ever been a recorded case?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:07 pm 
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Mrpublic wrote:
Is anyone else bothered.....???

No :shock:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:22 pm 
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it bothers me lots. you need to register to read this but here it is

Oral sex and HIV transmission
David A Hawkins

HIV/GU Medicine Directorate, Chelsea and Westminster Hospital, London SW10 9NH, UKdavid.hawkins@chelwest.nhs.uk


It is well established that oral sex may lead to the transmission of a wide variety of STIs, including HIV.1–4 As discussed elsewhere in this issue (see syphilis symposium, pp 309–26) oral sex appears to be important in the resurgence of early infectious syphilis in the United Kingdom. Many of these latter cases have been in HIV positive individuals and it is likely that co-infection with syphilis would increase the risk of (oral) transmission of HIV—as has been shown similarly in numerous studies of genital HIV/STI co-infection.

Despite recognising that transmission does occur, some feel that the underlying risk of HIV transmission via oral sex is so low as to be negligible. However, two recent studies (as yet unpublished in peer review journals) suggest that oral sex may be contributing to a higher proportion of new HIV infections than previously thought. In the first study, of 102 men who had recently seroconverted, eight (7.8%) were attributed to oral sex. Of these eight, unprotected oral sex was the only risk factor in four, but four had also had protected anal sex.5 A second study from my own unit was of 494 HIV positive patients (mostly homosexual) who completed a questionnaire on sexual behaviour. Six per cent believed themselves to have been infected because of oral sex alone. Further follow up of these and other patients in our unit, who believe themselves to have been infected by unprotected oral sex is ongoing and about half, where data are available, have had recurrent infections of the mouth, which could have increased their risk.6

A third report of two studies from Australia, gave contradictory results. An interview study found that a similar proportion, seven of 75 (9.3%), homosexual men gave receptive oral intercourse as the likely source of their infection. However, the investigators felt that they must have had other risk factors as they denied ejaculation as part of their oral sex. Furthermore, in a cohort study of over 700 men, 26% reported unprotected receptive oral intercourse with ejaculation but they did not have an increased risk of seroconversion7 (for further discussion, see CDR8)

Finally, the press release from a very recent report of an ongoing study of homosexual men from San Francisco states that receptive oral intercourse with ejaculation was a very low risk. One seroconversion was found but thought to have occurred outside the study period. However, the study population was small (198), only 20% of these claimed to have had receptive oral sex with an HIV positive partner, only 40% to ejaculation, and follow up was for only 6 months. It is therefore unlikely such a study would have had sufficient power to detect transmission, or to reject the hypothesis that transmission does occur (presented by Dr Kimberly Page-Shafer et al, National HIV prevention conference, Atlanta, August 2001).

In June 2000, the Department of Health, following the deliberations of a working party of the chief medical officers' expert advisory group on AIDS (EAGA), published a document entitled "Review of the evidence on the risk of HIV transmission associated with oral sex."9 The authors concluded, as with other extensive reviews, that oral transmission of HIV occurs and that certain factors might increase the risk. These include receptive oral intercourse (ROI) with ejaculation, high viral load, and various factors which might breach the oral defence mechanisms. Saliva is protective and has a number of antiviral components, such as thrombospondin and secretory leucocyte protease inhibitor (SLPI), but these are likely to be overcome by the volume effects of seminal fluid.10

Although most of the several dozen case reports to date have been of receptive oral intercourse, it should be noted that there have been reports of HIV transmission associated with insertive fellatio as well as two reports of transmission associated with cunnilingus and one of insertive anilingus.9 The presence of inflammation in the mouth, caused by sores, trauma, or infection is described in some of these reports. The relative rarity of cases of HIV infection attributed to oral transmission is likely to be influenced by the rarity with which oral exposure has occurred without other forms of penetrative sexual contact and the tendency of attributing HIV transmission to any higher risk exposure which can be identified.

In recent years, many participants in studies have indulged in protective anal and vaginal sex but oral sex has normally been unprotected. This might explain why a real (but low) risk of unprotected oral sex is now becoming more apparent. Another difficulty is the power of studies to identify such a small increase in risk. For example, in one important cohort study from four sites, the multivariate analysis showed that for the pooled data, the odds ratio for receptive oral intercourse and increased risk of HIV transmission was only 1.01 (95% CI 1.00–1.02).11

The dilemma is how to present this small but real risk as appropriate public health messages. Concern has also been raised that highlighting the risk of unprotected oral sex may incite higher risk sexual practices as alternatives. Conversely, it is important that individuals and the public understand that oral sex is not risk free and may lead to transmission of HIV as well as other STIs.

UNAIDS and Centers for Disease Control (CDC) state, on their websites, that a condom or dental dam is recommended to reduce the risk of HIV transmission when indulging in oral sex. The expert advisory group on AIDS, following the publication of the working party review on the evidence on the risk of HIV transmission and oral sex last year, recently released a statement on risk. This reads as follows:

"There is a risk of HIV transmission during unprotected oral sex. This risk is less than from unprotected penetrative anal or vaginal sex. The risk of HIV and other sexually-transmitted infections can be reduced by using a condom for all forms of penetrative sex, including oral sex. If a condom is not used, avoidance of ejaculation into the mouth probably lessens (but does not eliminate) the risk of HIV transmission."

This risk statement recognises that oral sex is often unprotected, despite official recommendations, and enters into the discussion of what other factors might reduce the risk. A more comprehensive discussion, in the form of questions and answers, is available on the Department of Health website: www.doh.gov.uk/eaga. A recent issue of the Communicable Disease Review (CDR) has also discussed oral sex, as has National AIDS Manual (NAM), which has provided a useful fact sheet.8, 12 The Terence Higgins Trust has also relaunched its "Use your head" campaign, avoiding the use of the word "rare" in describing the risk of oral sex as this may be misinterpreted and equated with negligible risk.
Are there figures to assist counselling of the risk of oral sex on an individual level? Samuel et al, using several different mathematical models, estimated a per partner risk for receptive oral intercourse at about 1% (range 0.85–2.3%) where per partner relates to the risk with that partner, uncontrolled for sexual activity.13 It is of course the per contact risk that we need to consider when approaching the contentious issue of post exposure prophylaxis (PEP) following sexual exposure. Is there ever any justification for using PEP following oral sex? There have been no per contact risks provided for unprotected receptive fellatio with a known HIV positive individual. However, Vittinghoff et al have come up with an estimate of 0.04% following receptive oral intercourse with a known, or possibly HIV infected, partner.14 Clearly, there may be factors which might increase this overall risk and, as always with PEP , either following occupational or sexual exposure, an individual risk assessment needs to be performed.15 Receptive fellatio with ejaculation with a known HIV individual is probably the only oral sex activity of sufficient risk to justify consideration of provision of PEP. Additional factors such as a known high viral load in the source, recent dental surgery, pharyngitis, trauma, oral ulceration, or bleeding gums would also increase the likely risk. Clearly if the patient requesting PEP regularly has unprotected receptive oral intercourse with known HIV positive individuals then counselling him/her around this behaviour would probably be more important than provision of PEP.

In conclusion, unprotected oral sex carries a risk for the transmission of HIV. Owing to the frequency with which it is practised and given the fact that those with the highest risk of acquiring HIV often have protected anal or vaginal sex, it is possible that it may lead to 6–8% of new HIV infections. Although using a condom will reduce the risk of transmission of HIV and other STIs, following penetrative oral sex, it has to be recognised that many will choose not to follow that advice. A wider discussion of risk assessment should take place so that individuals might make informed choices about their sexual behaviour.
References


Edwards S, Carne C. Oral sex and the transmission of viral STIs. Sex Transm Inf 1998;74:6–10.[Abstract]
Edwards S, Carne C. Oral sex and the transmission of non-viral STIs. Sex Transm Inf 1998;74:95–100.[Abstract]
Rothenberg RB, Scarlett M, del Rio C, et al. Oral transmission of HIV. AIDS 1998;12:2095–105.[CrossRef][Medline]
Robinson EK, Evans BG. Oral sex and HIV transmissions. AIDS 1999;13:737–8.[CrossRef][Medline]
Dillon B, Hecht FM, Swanson M, et al. Primary HIV infection associated with oral transmission: the Options Project UCSF. 7th Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infection, San Francisco, 2000 (abstract 473).
Khan AW, Richards CM, Mandalia S, et al. Safer sex in HIV infected patients in London—practices and risks. Sex Transm Inf (in press).
Grulich AE, Prestage G. Oral sex as a risk factor for HIV: a review of Australian data. HIV/AIDS and Related Diseases Social Research Conference, Sydney, May 2000.
CDSC. Orogenital contact (oral sex) and transmission of HIV and other sexually transmitted infections. Commun Dis Rep CDR Wkly [serial online] 2001 [cited 5 July 2001];11(1).
Department of Health. Report of a Working Group of the UK Chief Medical Officers' Expert Advisory Group on AIDS. Review of the evidence on the risk of HIV transmission associated with oral sex. June 2000.
Cohen MS, Shugars DC, Fiscus SA. Limits on oral transmission of HIV-1. Lancet 2000;356:272.[CrossRef][Medline]
Page-Shafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, et al. Sexual risk behaviour and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982–1994. Am J Epidemiol 1997;146:531–42.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
National AIDS Manual. AIDS Treatment Update, 103. Factsheet no 55. NAM, July 2001.
Samuel MC, Hessol N, Shiboski S, et al. Factors associated with human immunodeficiency virus seroconversion in homosexual men in three San Francisco cohort studies, 1984–1989. J Acquir Immune Defic Syndr 1993;6:303–12.
Vittinghoff E, Douglas J, Judson F, et al. Per-contact risk of human immunodeficiency virus transmission between male sexual partners. Am J Epidemiol 1999;150:306–11.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
Hawkins DA. Postexposure to HIV prophylaxis. Curr Opin Infect Dis 2000;13:3–57.

http://sti.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/77/5/307


someone asked about numbers. check out pubmed for data.

like this


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8374 ... PlusDrugs1


Prostitution and risk of HIV: male partners of female prostitutes.


Academic Department of Public Health, St Mary's Hospital Medical School, London.

OBJECTIVE--To describe risk behaviours for infection with HIV in male sexual partners of female prostitutes.

DESIGN--A cross sectional study. SETTING--Genitourinary medicine clinic, St Mary's Hospital, London. SUBJECTS--112 self identified male sexual partners of female prostitutes: 101 who reported commercial sexual relationships only, five who reported non-commercial relationships only, and six who reported both commercial and non-commercial relationships.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES--Reported risk behaviours for infection with HIV. RESULTS--Of the 40 men who had had previous HIV tests or were tested during the study, two (5%) were infected with HIV. Of the men who would answer the questions, 34/94 reported having sex with other men, 2/105 reported using injected drugs, 8/105 had a history of blood transfusion, 14/108 reported a past history of gonorrhoea, 44/102 reported paying for sex abroad, and 8/92 said that they had also been paid for sex. Of the 55 men who reported paying for vaginal intercourse in the past year, 45 (82%) said that they had always used a condom. In contrast, of the 11 non-paying partners of prostitutes, only two (18%) reported ever using a condom with their partners. CONCLUSIONS--Men who have sex with female prostitutes cannot be assumed to be at risk of infection with HIV only by this route: homosexual contact may place them at greater risk. Despite the heterogeneity among male sexual partners of prostitutes, patterns of use of condoms were uniform when they were considered as a reflection of the type of relationship a man had with a female prostitute rather than a consequence of an individual's level of risk.

PIP: A cross sectional study of prostitutes was complemented by interviewing both paying (clients) and non paying (boyfriends or husbands) partners of female prostitutes to describe known risk factors and different sexual behaviors for infection with HIV. Altogether 112 men participated in the study during 1990-91: 107 were clients of female prostitutes and 11 were non paying members. 75 men had responded to advertisements, 24 were recruited through the genitourinary medicine clinic, and 13 through other methods. 47 interviews were conducted face-to-face and 65 by telephone. 24 men reported having had HIV tests; a further 16 men were tested during the study. The results yielded an overall prevalence of infection with HIV of 5% (2/40). Of the men who replied, 2% reported past use of injected drugs; 8% (8/105) had a history of blood transfusion; 13% (14/108) reported a history of gonorrhea; and 36% (34/94) reported ever having had sex with another man. 15 reported having sex with other men in the past year, and 6 reported taking part in anal intercourse. During their most recent contacts, all 6 men had used condoms, and 1 reported a condom failure. Of the 84 men who reported paying for sex in the past year, 55 had vaginal sex and 45 of these always used a condom. 79 clients reported some use of condoms using sex with prostitutes in the past year, of whom 23 said that 1 or more had failed. Condoms were used in commercial sex primarily to prevent sexually transmitted infections and HIV. Most men always used a condom with a prostitute; most used a condom sometimes with causal, non commercial partners; but few used a condom with regular non commercial partners (wife or steady girlfriend). Among the 11 men who reported noncommercial relationships with prostitutes, 6 who also had paid for sexual intercourse during the past year reported always using a condom in those encounters. In contrast, of the 11 non paying partners, only 2 (18%) reported ever using a condom with their partners.


* granted this study includes men who had sex with other men and with prostitutes which doesn't nec'ly apply to us mongers in CR but from these two infected by HIV it is spreadable by the women if theyve contracted the virus then pass them to others. some of us dont wrap up even?!!!!




so it bothers me always so when mongering i always cover it up and cover them as much

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:38 pm 
PHD From Del Rey University!
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Mucho Gusto wrote:
Mrpublic wrote:
Is anyone else bothered.....???

No :shock:


We don't have to worry MG :lol:

Your good friend NFlorida :shock: :P has all the worry covered. :roll: Just read his post. :wink:

Off course what is still unanswered is the real question. :? That was posed by

Get Rhythm wrote:
Actually, I'm kind of scratching my head wondering how a girl blowing me bareback increases her chance of getting AIDS from someone else ... :?:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:30 pm 
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Mr. Public.

I am concerned. I don't make and never have made demands for BBBJ. It isn't a deal-breaker for me. I have however requested it numerous times. :) But never "demanded."

I believe that what you mean is that the girls will become less vigilant and/or resistant when asked to give BBBJ, thus increasing her exposure to risk.

Furthermore, while there are concerns for the receptive partner, the "blowee" takes risks as well, ranging from transmission of common cold to herpes to gonorrhea. :(

The experts, as with those quoted above have continued to recommend safer sex practices.

BTW, to my tastes, a covered BJ can be just as satisfying as bareback, providing that the fellatrix knows what's she's doing and is enthusiastic. :D

Thanks N. Florida. Great citations. :D

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:17 pm 
Ticas ask me for advice!

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Irish -
it's obvious you don't get it.

El Ciego gets it

I believe that what you mean is that the girls will become less vigilant and/or resistant when asked to give BBBJ, thus increasing her exposure to risk.

then exposing all of us to risk.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:36 pm 
Masters Degree in Mongering!

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I personally think that the chicas are in MUCH more danger from all of the ticos these girls bareback for free.

As for mongers getting BBBJs, they need to be concerned about Gonorrhea and Herpes.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:56 pm 
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NFlorida wrote:
Irish -
it's obvious you don't get it.



If you have it...........I don't want it. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:35 pm 
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A good point was mentioned in the article above; The transmission of the AIDS virus is much easier if the person has another STD.
Things that are not always easily detected can be deadly.

What REALLY bothers me is the girls who will go BB for a propina!
I hope that extra $5 or $10 protects them (and their customer) against disease.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:26 pm 
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A MUCH larger number of girls (including Del Rey girls) will go bareback with the right propina. I met a guy on one of my trips that ONLY does bareback and picks up del rey and MP girls easily. In his case he is willing to offer a fairly large propina and several girls are desperate enough to take it. Even that girl who swears she will never BB a client usually reconsiders when he offers her $200 :shock: :shock: .

Even then, that guy is probably one of 20-50 guys she has barebacked, most of them being ticos. :( :(


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:44 pm 
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Quote:
granted this study includes men who had sex with other men and with prostitutes which doesn't nec'ly apply to us mongers in CR but from these two infected by HIV it is spreadable by the women if theyve contracted the virus then pass them to others. some of us dont wrap up even?!!!!


IF CRT were a gay site, I would better understand this discussion. And why is it that non VIP posters are always the ones posting all this negative shit?

Personally I think getting HIV from a BBBJ is about the same likelihood as jacking yourself off. Of course BB phucking is a whole different subject....which has been covered ad nauseum on this site over the years. Give it a rest...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:53 pm 
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Tman wrote:
...And why is it that non VIP posters are always the ones posting all this negative shit?


Tman,
I'd like to introduce to the retired-NonVIP-pro-boner-attorney-of-doom-and-gloom-who's-too-phucking-cheap-and-paranoid-to -pay-for-membership-renewal-but-has-been-to-CR-128-times-in-the-past-60-days-and-has-an-answer-for-everything NFlorida.

Listen to what he says, because this man is a player, and he's one of the most credible resources on CRT. But a word of advice (don't bad-mouth gringas, because if you do, he'll blow a gasket)

Actually, I think he has a crush on PacoLoco! :P

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