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My experience with gaming or Playing poker on the internet is:
I have gambled or played poker on the internet 56%  56%  [ 27 ]
I would never play poker or gamble online 31%  31%  [ 15 ]
I would like to play poker or gamble online, but with the US governments current position on it, I am afraid to 8%  8%  [ 4 ]
I could care less about the issue or rights of individuals to do so 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 48
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:00 pm 
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Though this is part of a response on another thread, I thought this topic deserved its own thread for those of us who actively gamble or play poker online. BOS (Bet on Sports) was successfully shut down by the feds and most of their people laid off. I know BOS were not saints, but I do have genuine concerns about the state of the industry in Costa Rica if the US successfully shuts down an offshore book the size of BOS. I would not be leaving a lot of money in a offshore betting account until some of this is clarified in Costa Rica. There are few to no regulations there...and who knows what is going to happen. While one would think they would protect the jobs and income the country gets from these businesses from just the money circulating in San Jose and elsewhere, it is a fact governments arent realists or deal with rationality very well.

If you are not familiar with it, the House of Representatives have passed a bill outlawing ALL internet gaming for US citizens, including poker and sportsbetting. The CR industry is quietly waiting for the dust to clear...and I guess I mention this on two fronts. One is to be careful how much money you leave hanging out there. Two...I have supported and recommended other gamblers and poker players get involved in voicing dissidence to your US Congressmen, especially as the bill now heads to the Senate...and if passed, you know GW will sign it on behalf of the "moral minority". You can read up on and participate at https://www.pokerplayersalliance.org/keep.html .

Here is the article from USAToday about the issue:
Quote:


U.S. cracking down on offshore betting industry
Updated 7/19/2006 1:51 AM ET
By Michael McCarthy, USA TODAY
When the U.S. House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed a bill cracking down on Internet gambling last week, David Carruthers, CEO of online gaming company Bet On Sports, was one of the most outspoken critics of the proposed law. The 49-year-old British executive has more immediate problems to worry about. Federal agents arrested Carruthers on Sunday at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport as he made his way from the company's offices in London to Costa Rica.
As part of a wide-ranging probe of what the American Gaming Association says is a $12 billion online gambling industry, U.S. Attorney Catherine Hanaway unsealed a 22-count indictment charging racketeering, conspiracy and fraud against Carruthers, 10 others and four companies Monday. A warrant was sworn out for the arrest of 47-year-old company founder Gary Kaplan. U.S. District Judge Catherine Perry also approved the government's request to bar Bet On Sports from accepting bets from this country and forcing it to refund money to U.S. account holders. The FBI has ordered four phone companies to shut off service to the company.

The arrest of Carruthers, a longtime British racing industry executive who joined Bet On Sports in 2000, is setting off alarm bells in Europe and the Caribbean, where the offshore casino industry is based. Bet On Sports asked for its stock to be suspended on the London Stock Exchange on Tuesday. Shares of British gaming stocks, such as industry leader Party Gaming, fell Tuesday in heavy trading, wiping out more than $1 billion in value.

"The No. 1 topic at every board meeting today is 'Am I next?' " says Internet gambling attorney Lawrence Walters. "There's a high degree of concern now that the government has made it clear they think they can prosecute foreign citizens at foreign corporations."

The House bill is the first shot in an attack by the federal government on a foreign industry that considers itself beyond the reach of U.S. law — while generating most of its revenue from U.S. customers. An estimated 23 million Americans play casino games such as poker and blackjack online, according to the Poker Players Alliance.

The Justice Department says online gambling is illegal under the Federal Wire Act of 1961. While authorities have not pursued individual bettors playing poker on their home or office PC, they have gone after some gaming executives.

Despite generating half or more of their revenue from U.S. customers, online gaming companies maintain U.S. laws don't apply to them because they're located in places where online gaming is legal, such as England, Costa Rica and Gibraltar.

U.S. Attorney Hanaway promised the indictments are "but one step in a series of actions designed to punish and seize the profits of individuals who disregard federal and state laws" during a news conference Monday. That means top casino executives will have to worry about personal exposure if they try to catch a connecting flight in the USA, as did Carruthers, says Walters.

The Unlawful Internet Gambling Act passed by the House on July 11 would strengthen the 1961 law by barring banks and credit card companies from collecting for Internet casinos. The bill's main supporter in the Senate, Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., issued a statement Tuesday saying the indictment strengthens the need for legislation to ban Internet gambling.

"I am hopeful that legislation I intend on moving through the Senate this year will provide the Justice Department with the tools necessary to continue aggressively pursuing those that wish to circumvent the rules and engage in this sort of illegal activity," the statement said.

A broad coalition of sports leagues, including the NFL and NCAA, and family rights groups supports the bill. Supporters add the proposed law would stop Internet gambling from spreading to cellphones and other new mediums.

"The House properly recognized that betting via the Internet already is illegal in this country," NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy says. "This bill reinforces the law and would place significant impediments on the operations of fly-by-night offshore Internet gambling companies."

But critics charge the government would be better off regulating and taxing the online gambling industry. Their biggest complaint: The current bill provides exceptions for state-regulated lotteries such as Powerball and horse racing while cracking down on casino games.

"This bill's advocates proclaim the immorality of online gaming and shout it will destroy our society — unless you're betting on horse races," declared U.S. Rep. Shelley Berkley, D-Nev., on the floor of the House during the bill debate.

Michael Bolcerek, president of the Poker Players Alliance, adds, "Prohibitions don't work. Poker players will find a way to play. This won't stop anything. It will just drive people underground."



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:27 pm 
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A thread like this will inevitably become politically oriented, so here it goes. This is just another example of the US playing morality police to the world. And Bush will immediately sign anything that looks to uphold the "moral values" of America. I wish somebody could expose him for the hypocrite he was and still is.

By the way, the US government will not stop this. They're kidding themselves if they think they will. All they will do is displace it. I can compare it to the prostitution "problem" in NYC. The police cleaned up the streets so the tourists don't see it. Yeah, they did a great job. They basically moved it indoors. :lol:

I have been playing online for a couple years now and don't intent to stop. I have never kept anymore than a $100 or $200 in my casino account for this very reason.

It feels good to know that Congress is working hard to solve all the problems of the world while ignoring everything that goes on within our borders. And all those Congressman/women who say it's immoral to gamble, say that it's ok as long as you do it in Nevada. It's ok to visit hookers too, but it has to be in a legal brothel so the government can can get some too.

P.S. Watch out ZB, since you get most of your money from US citizens, they will probably look to shut you down too. :twisted:


Last edited by Orange on Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:44 pm 
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Orange, while I understand and share most of your feelings here, I think it is much more than a political issue. It is much bigger than blaming Bush, the republicans or the democrats. The bigger issue is a cultural one in the USA. Millions upon millions of Americans like to drink, smoke, do drugs and yes, have sex with someone who is not their marital partner. Prohibitions have been historically faulty in stopping any of these behaviors. But what most Americans dont understand in my opinion is that once you start legislating morality to this level, it creates a very divided and conflicted society. It becomes government against the people...and people start looking for ways around government bureacracy...and a majority of your population becomes criminals or vigilantes. The USA as a police state...not too unlike the Taliban in some of our opinions.

IN summary, I dont see the discussion here as a political one, but more a cultural debate and decision. The problem comes in that while many of us are busy "enjoying" our freedoms, we dont see coming out of right field the people that want to limit our rights of personal decision. The government wouldnt be doing this if there werent a lot of voting public behind the issue. But, as we know, the mores of people on the east coast are different from the west coast, which are different from the midwest or the south. So how can a federal government of such a diversified culture dictate on so many or these personal, morality decisions?

So, for me its really not about the current administration or any particular party. It is a cultural issue...that in one way or the other affects us all whether we admit it or not.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:02 pm 
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My situation is of course a little different, as most online casinos I've visited are "blind unfriendly" (i.e. I can't use their interface). I'm not a big gambler anyway, so it's not a huge deal for me personally.

What disturbs me is the gross restraint of trade represented by U.S. policies toward any gambling other than established, large gaming corporations and/or Native American tribes. Joe Average and his investors cannot open a casino. The Fed stand on international (Internet) gaming is much like its stand on worldwide prostitution, imposing "democracy" on regions of the world where strife has reigned over the will of the people for 2,000 years, and its take on personal privacy and liberties of all kinds.
:mad:

I have already written my Senators and Congressmen about this, urging them to pull in the overextended arms of their influence. Have you?

:?:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:17 pm 
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This is my theory on why things are changing in the U.S.

People who do some of the things I like to do (gamble, drink, travel for "fun") are the type of people who do their own thing. They don't usually dictate how people should live. They follow a more "live and let live" philosophy. They often are not regular church-goes, if they are religious at all.

These people often don't rally against political hyperpole (except possibly unjust and illegal wars).

People who belong to the "moral right", on the otherhand, DO rally against these evil things. They get together at churches and rallies to "fight against the moral decay of America". While this is noble on the surface unfortunately it goes against the idea of freedom to choose what you want to do as long as you aren't hurting others, part of the foundation of this country.

The fallout of this is that these people who want to stop the activities I enjoy are the ones who are gaining power in government. People who might seek political office can't speak out against these people or they are labeled as "bad" people and will never get elected. It's pretty hard to get elected running on an "immoral" platform. The "good" people are using their power and money to fight the very things that make my life bearable.

It's a swirling eddy of despair and I feel it's only going to get worse.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:59 am 
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Good points Wit. It is all really history recycling itself. It seems even if we know history...we are doomed to repeat it.

According to the traditional history of the US and north america discovery, it was basically mercenary types who adventured andpaved the way to the new world, the wild west, the gold rush, etc. Then followed the people looking for "religious freedom"...to be free from the church states that England and other countries became with state religions and heavy control of beliefs...and vices. They came to America and other places to be free...and then over the centuries have turned around and made another run at a 'church state"...Christian nation..."God fearing Americans". It is such a contradiction to have people wanting "freedom of religion" from their government, yet then want to turn around and make the government their tool of propigating their beliefs and/or lifestyles over everyone else. This happens primarily from the white establishment (my roots), and desire of religions ala our country to propigate not only democracy (which is becoming a rare commodity in our own country)...but other cultures traditions and lifestyles are called "godless", hedonistic, profane, ...everyone else is going to hell but us. We have arrived to a scary time in our US history where these voices have the votes, the bucks, and the platforms of churches and media to espouse THEIR way. In recent history you have had extreme fundamentalists even make real runs at being President...ala Pat Robertson of the 700 Club. Scary as hell...

Sorry to wax so long on this...again, to me it is cultural commentary, not political. Politicians are just puppets as Wit has pointed out here...pandering to the power and the money. What they dont realize to its fullest is the amount of wealth that is leaving the US of A, legally and otherwise. Black markets are booming, illegals are sending BILLIONS back to their home countries...and legally, morally or democratically...there is nothing the USA can do about it. Other countries like China and some European coutries are "eating our lunch" economically and tradewise. Our country is in hock up to its ears, the markets are falling, gas prices are out of site...and meanwhile our govt now wants to control the internet and gaming. Its a messy time...and good time to be living offshore in my book.

Apologies to anyone who feels these are "UnAmerican thoughts". I rreally look at myself as a true patriot and love the original ideals of my country and its history. Unfortunately, much of that is getting lost in the pendulum swing of the masses counting on the federal govt to give them everything...including telling them what to think and how to act. That is the CRUX of the problem in my opinion.

Good night...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:53 am 
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Tman,

I am a patriot too, literally born on the Fourth of July.

1. We're a nation of sheep.

2. False egalitarianism has convinced the least of us that our voice and opinion are as valuable as the best among us.

3. We're satisfied as long as we're fed and entertained. If civil rights are violated, it's someone else's problem...so who cares?

4. We've allowed a few bad actors in and outside our government to terrorize us, making us believe that there's a terrorist around every corner. Using this largely-inflated fear, we've been convinced to give up 90% of our Constitutional rights without a fight.

5. The whores on Capitol Hill are for sale to hthe highest bidder. Period. Justice is for sale as well, also to the highest bidder.

6. Our government has and continues to be stolen from us: Diebold machines, courts appointing Presidents, voters bilked out of their right to vote, polls being run dishonestly, illegal immigrants being encouraged to vote.

7. The media is almost wholly corporate-controlled.

And the worst part is... it's still the best country in the world. Think how bad it would suck to live in a real hell-hole, like Canada, for instance! :P :lol:

Guys, as of about six posts ago, we be in violation of Forum rules against disgusting politics...er, discussing politics. Our culture is political by its nature, so even discussing culture is probably a no-no.

But what the hell do I know? I'm part of the now-obsolete white male middle class. Thanks to all who I have elected but who do not serve my needs, desires or politics.

They're ALL out in November.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:17 pm 
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I suppose my posts could be construed as purely political in nature though it truly to me is all about protecting personal rights, in the USA, Costa Rica, and worldwide. This includes gambling rights which was the original purpose of this thread. Of course the discussion easily shifts towards political comments as obviously our government is in the middle of this controversy. Plus I dont see much discension on this discussion...though if someone feels otherwise than what some of us are ranting about here, I would welcome any contrary opinion or dialogue. Maybe someone can shed light in a contructive or enlightening manner of how our governments actions make sense. So far, the only reasonings I have read in the press are to "protect addicts from having easy access to gambling via the internet" and someones blanket statement about the "immorality of gambling". As I think ORange brought up...all these prohibitions and historic attempts to legislate morality have failed. It just drives things underground and makes many innocent individuals criminals in the eyes of our courts and government. This it the silly reality of this situation. People will find a way to gamble...online even. If you use the same rationality, then you have to tack on to these laws bans on smoking, drinking, sex...and yes...FOOD. Many people are addicted to McDonalds, but I see no legislation banning McDonalds from every city in America full of food addicted Americans. I'm more concerned about the healthcare costs of obesity in our culture than I am the personal financial risks of gamblers. Oh...and ya better outlaw the stock market also...talk about high risk gambling for many addicted people...

Where does it end? Lets just get back to the basics...lets live and let live...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:27 pm 
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Tman wrote:
"protect addicts from having easy access to gambling via the internet"

I'll tell you how much BS that statement is, they have developed slot machines that take CREDIT and DEBIT CARDS! If that's not feeding a gambling addict's habit I don't know what is.

http://www.theiia.org/Gaming/index.cfm?iid=233

Electronic funds transfer (EFT) download fraud or malfunctions such as unauthorized credit download or slot machines that do not cap downloaded credit at the limit of the patron's credit or debit card.


http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/ ... tory7.html

It makes me so mad I want to hop a plane to Vegas or Biloxi or Tunica or St. Louis or Kansas City or New Orleans (I've gotten gambling offers from each of those cities in the last week!) I guess they miss my money.


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 Post subject: Exactly Wit!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:52 pm 
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Witling wrote:
Tman wrote:
"protect addicts from having easy access to gambling via the internet"

I'll tell you how much BS that statement is, they have developed slot machines that take CREDIT and DEBIT CARDS! If that's not feeding a gambling addict's habit I don't know what is.

http://www.theiia.org/Gaming/index.cfm?iid=233

Electronic funds transfer (EFT) download fraud or malfunctions such as unauthorized credit download or slot machines that do not cap downloaded credit at the limit of the patron's credit or debit card.


http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/ ... tory7.html

It makes me so mad I want to hop a plane to Vegas or Biloxi or Tunica or St. Louis or Kansas City or New Orleans (I've gotten gambling offers from each of those cities in the last week!) I guess they miss my money.


I believe that the current governmental stance against online gambling has little to do either with protecting addicted gamblers or immorality of gaming.

I believe the U.S. is simply pissed off at not getting their "fair" share of tax revenue. Also, the government has since 1928 put mechanisms into place to track the flow of money. Offshore gambling makes them nervous, as they have less access to monitor the cash flowing through these businesses. They don't like that at all. Urban legend has it that J. Edgar Hoover wanted to change the FBI's motto to "Follow the Money."

Did you know that the vast majority of FBI field agents are either trained as lawyers or accountants, not police officers?

No taxation, no trace... no good.

I do not expect this governmental interference in our lives to lessen anytime soon. Heaven help us all. :(

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:08 pm 
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You guys are absolutely right. The real underlying issue of the US govt on this is not about protecting addicts or about morality. I too am convinced it is about government control on money flows and taxation. With our nations huge debt factor, tied to our ongoing proliferation of wars and conflicts, including building walls and paying thousands of troops to lineup at our border with Mexico...AND the billions of taxpayers dollars wasted on controlling cocaine and other controlled substances in Colombia, Mexico and elsewhere...it is no wonder they want to get all the reveunue they can. BUT...when it shows up in illegal clampdowns of foreign gaming companies, foreign officers of those companies, and trying to outlaw your and my access as citizens to international gaming opportunities...it just becomes blatant arrogance, neglect of others international rights...and plain unconstitutional.

And yes, part of my rantings here are to encourage those of us who agree with these views to stand up and express them to your supposed representative government members. We will lose our democracy because we dont use it. We pass off our thinking, viewpoints and passions to "whatever THEY think is good for us". Scary business to lose control of your own life to "higher powers"...whether its the church, government, or the majoritty "sheep" alluded to in a previous post. Stand up and be counted. That is moral, just, and...patriotic.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:03 pm 
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You guys have it all wrong.

The only important issue here is

that I get my $360 back from Bet-on-Sports!

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Seems like I spend half my life drinking, gambling, and mongering. The other half... I waste.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:10 pm 
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That IS an important issue Slick. But if something happens, you can blame your good representative govt and prosecutors in the US of A.

If reason was involved, I got to believe these injunctions will eventually be lifted as I dont see how the USA can freeze accounts in CR or other offshore banks without due process of international courts of law. So far they seem to be affective in shutting off the intl phone lines and shutting down the site...which in itself I dont really understand as I understood they were located offshore, servers and all. I truly hope BOS will step up to the plate and reimburse those that they can...though sending it to USA accounts is probably out of the questions.

Keep me posted how this works out. Fortunately, I had bailed on BOS a couple years ago when I found BetCris. Good luck...


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:01 am 
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Quote:
Meanwhile The DoJ insists BetonSports has to establish a toll-free phone number for the sportsbook's U.S. customers to call and retrieve their money.
Hey Slick did you try the 1-800 number? :?

Another interesting slant to this story-
Quote:
Passenger's Lists screening may have led to BETonSPORTS CEO Arrest

David Carruthers may have to blame Bin Laden and the measures the U.S. enacted to fight the War on Terror for his arrest. Allegations according to which the FBI used passenger’s lists to determine where and when David Carruthers would have arrived in the United States were published today by British newspaper The Times.

European countries agreed to hand passenger lists to the United States as part of the War on Terror. The precision with which US federal agents took Mr. Carruthers into custody as he touched down in Dallas en route from London to Costa Rica raised concerns that the U.S. is using passengers lists for scopes other than to identify and detain terrorists.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:12 pm 
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Is this any surprise Paco? That is just the issue when it comes to governments going overboard on "sharing" data on its citizens. Someday hopefully the pendulum of individual rights protection will come back into focus with our supposed "Constitutional" government.

I really dont mind our government pursuing REGULATING the gaming industry in order to have checks and balances, consumer protection, and yes, income from taxes. But so far, most of the whores in congress are way off balance on this issue...and believe me...its not about morality. Its about MONEY...


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