Control Tower Snafu or Who's on First?

Orange · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:20 pm **Posts:** 12646

is that a yes?

Irish Drifter · **Posted:** Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:50 pm

It is.

LAdiablo · **Joined:** Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:48 pm **Posts:** 4583

flight back to LA in feb i saw a light aircraft pass just under the left wing of taca 604. it scared the shit out of me as it was the middle of the night and i was half conscious. the guy in front of me heard me gasp and turned around with a look like did you just see that? if it had been light i would have seen the pilots face.
is there any website or agency that keeps track of these near miss things that i can look it up?

Orange · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:20 pm **Posts:** 12646

According to a news report this morning, the controller in question admitted he fell asleep. He was on his 4th straight overnight shift.

Irish Drifter · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:34 pm

Orange wrote:

According to a news report this morning, the controller in question admitted he fell asleep. He was on his 4th straight overnight shift.

He seems to be using that "4th straight overnight shift" as an excuse for sleeping on the job. Countless thousand of workers work overnight shifts 5 days a week without falling asleep on the job. The key I believe is what did he do in the hours he was not working the overnight shift? Did he sleep or did he just take a quick nap and go about his normal daytime activities? If he knew he was scheduled to work overnight shifts and failed to get proper rest on his off time he was negligent.

Pacifica55 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:09 pm

LaDiablo wrote:

flight back to LA in feb i saw a light aircraft pass just under the left wing of taca 604. it scared the shit out of me as it was the middle of the night and i was half conscious. the guy in front of me heard me gasp and turned around with a look like did you just see that? if it had been light i would have seen the pilots face.
is there any website or agency that keeps track of these near miss things that i can look it up?

Just because two aircraft are close together does not mean there was a "near miss". Visual separation is often applied between aircraft in good weather. Basically, one aircraft is required to have the other in sight and agree not to hit the other aircraft ("maintain visual separation from that aircraft").

ID - It has been brought to the FAA's attention on numerous occasions that it is an unsafe situation to require one controller to staff a tower facility alone. A sleeping controller is just one of the things that can happen: What about an emergency or on-airport incident? One person cannot possibly watch the airport, run the frequencies and coordinate the emergency equipment, not to mention the telephone!

The FAA has resisted staffing towers with two controllers on the mid-shift to save the cost of wages. This is just one example of what happens when the FAA's mission is displaced with "cost cutting" measures.

(FAA Mission Statement: To provide a safe, orderly and expeditious flow of air traffic.)

Irish Drifter · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:20 pm

Pacifica55 wrote:

ID - It has been brought to the FAA's attention on numerous occasions that it is an unsafe situation to require one controller to staff a tower facility alone. A sleeping controller is just one of the things that can happen: What about an emergency or on-airport incident? One person cannot possibly watch the airport, run the frequencies and coordinate the emergency equipment, not to mention the telephone!

I am not disputing that it is inherently dangerous to have only one controller in a commercial airport tower on any shift and is a practice that should be abolished.

My point was, and is, that the mere fact that an individual is scheduled to work "4th straight overnight shift" is not a sufficient reason to blame for falling asleep. If there are other unknown mitigating factors they should be taken into consideration but the 4 night schedule is not unto itself a sufficient reason IMO.

LAdiablo · **Joined:** Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:48 pm **Posts:** 4583

Pacifica55 wrote:

LaDiablo wrote:

flight back to LA in feb i saw a light aircraft pass just under the left wing of taca 604. it scared the shit out of me as it was the middle of the night and i was half conscious. the guy in front of me heard me gasp and turned around with a look like did you just see that? if it had been light i would have seen the pilots face.
is there any website or agency that keeps track of these near miss things that i can look it up?

Just because two aircraft are close together does not mean there was a "near miss". Visual separation is often applied between aircraft in good weather. Basically, one aircraft is required to have the other in sight and agree not to hit the other aircraft ("maintain visual separation from that aircraft").

ID - It has been brought to the FAA's attention on numerous occasions that it is an unsafe situation to require one controller to staff a tower facility alone. A sleeping controller is just one of the things that can happen: What about an emergency or on-airport incident? One person cannot possibly watch the airport, run the frequencies and coordinate the emergency equipment, not to mention the telephone!

The FAA has resisted staffing towers with two controllers on the mid-shift to save the cost of wages. This is just one example of what happens when the FAA's mission is displaced with "cost cutting" measures.

(FAA Mission Statement: To provide a safe, orderly and efficient flow of air traffic.)

thats why i wanted to know it there was a website that tracked it to know if it qualifies. and i think maybe light aircraft would give wider berth to jumbo jets.

Californicationdude · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:45 pm

thanks for all the comments/observations.....especially for those that work in the aviation field....very interesting reading

my experiences in shift work has been in power plants/engine rooms, marine or stationary....not aviation

I never liked the midnight to morning shifts....it usually took at least a few months in my case to adapt to the hours.

if one is busy, it helps to stay awake (hard to fall asleep while physically engaged)...but just sitting makes it too easy to nod off in my opinion

Nhhank · **Joined:** Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:32 pm **Posts:** 3399

Well Cali

You think Diacort can fix this

LAdiablo · **Joined:** Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:48 pm **Posts:** 4583

Srilm wrote:

LaDiablo wrote:

flight back to LA in feb i saw a light aircraft pass just under the left wing of taca 604. it scared the shit out of me as it was the middle of the night and i was half conscious. the guy in front of me heard me gasp and turned around with a look like did you just see that? if it had been light i would have seen the pilots face.
is there any website or agency that keeps track of these near miss things that i can look it up?

Very common at LAX, and usually not a problem. TACA comes in from the south and often ends up on a low-altitude arrival that passes over Orange County and Los Alamitos. Even if you're not on that arrival, you still end up pretty low on final within 10 miles of the airport. Lots of small aircraft in this area at these altitudes. Controllers and pilots generally use 500 feet of vertical spacing. In the air, 500 feet looks CLOSE. In the LAX B airspace, it can even get closer because the controllers will keep the airliners at the floor of the B and the non-participating aircraft will operate just a couple hundred feet under the floor of the airspace. Since there is a transponder requirement in most of this airspace, if there had been a real collision hazard TCAS would most likely have commanded a maneuver that I guarantee you would have remembered.

As Pac said, visual separation is often used also and the close-spaced parallel runways at LAX are often used with heavy airliners just a few hundred feet apart. I was riding in a 767 landing on the south side (25R) a few months back and the 767 landing on the other runway (25L) was so close I couldn't see the whole airplane through my window.

SR

thanks for all the info. i would be guessing based on the timing but i doubt we had entered california airspace. there was still a good two hours of flight.
but yes i am sure if it was that close the maneuver to avoid would have been abrupt. that is providing the pilots were awake. :shock:

Pacifica55 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:21 pm

Once years ago I was riding the jump seat in a B-737 (right between and slightly behind the pilots), We were en route at FL350 (35,000') when we were issued traffic, a heavy jet, opposite direction at FL330. We spotted the heavy easily dead ahead with a closure rate of around 1000mph. We knew he was 2000' below us but it looked like we were going to meet head-on...bug, meet windshield.

I spent many years investigating aviation incidents/accidents. It is amazing comparing the pilot account of an occurrence with the radar data (which is very precise). Visual estimations of range are notorious inaccurate from my experience.

Is aviation safe? Anytime you take something soft made mostly of water, like a human, and propel it at 600mph there is the chance, however remote, that it will come to an abrupt stop with predictable results.

Californicationdude · **Posted:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:00 pm

why the shortage of controllers?

just curious, how long does it take to properly train a controller?

how much do they get paid in wages?

would the costs of an extra employee on a midnight shift impact the budget of a major airport?

thank you.

Pacifica55 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:50 pm

That is hilarious! As if management does not now which facilities are staffing single-person mids. Geez, the union was arguing that two person mids were necessary back before Bush tried to bust the union. The cost of the publicity campaign to try to keep the Administrator from looking like a tool probably cost more than staffing the mids with two people.

I love the reactionary posturing...so typical.

LAdiablo · **Joined:** Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:48 pm **Posts:** 4583

Srilm wrote:

And just for the record...

-------------------
I have directed all radar controllers to contact air
traffic control towers at those airports to confirm that there is a
controller prepared to handle the incoming flight.
------------------

I am a radar controller, and I have recieved NO SUCH direction. I worked a mid-shift last night. Typical management idiocracy.

SR

jesus they need to call ahead and schedule an appt. with a controller? that is just shocking anyone would suggest it is the solution. peoples lives are at stake.

www.CostaRicaTicas.com

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