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Fooling around on my novia - where do I draw the line???
Tow the "straight and narrow" line - as I would expect her to... 3%  3%  [ 3 ]
No harm in hanging out with the boys at the bars & clubs, looking around, flirting, etc.; but nothing further... 13%  13%  [ 12 ]
A few lap dances here and there, making out with girls at the clubs, etc., but leave it in my pants... 6%  6%  [ 6 ]
A killer blow job now and then sure wouldn't hurt for a little variety... 15%  15%  [ 14 ]
Whatever I can get away with... 63%  63%  [ 60 ]
Total votes : 95
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 Post subject: Trust me on this one
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:50 am 
PHD From Del Rey University!

Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 8:46 am
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Location: Houston, Texas
What ever you can get away with surely seems the most logical to me. Your novia will surely do the same when given the opportunity. It is only (human)? Not! It is only instinct.

:shock:
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:09 am 
PHD From Del Rey University!
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I'm not an M-man and I don't really have one specific answer to this question so I did not vote in the poll, but can I offer a few thoughts anyway?

First, I'll address the twin issues of 1) whether a working girl is somehow less moral than a non-pro and 2) whether she is, was or never had been a pro makes a difference to the primary issue of whether it is ever okay to cheat.

Personally, I think there are few absolutes when it comes to morality and most of what we consider moral or immoral comes down to our own personal beliefs. So I try not to make blanket moral judgements about others. For examples, look at the debates over such things as abortion, gay marriage, consorting with prostitutes, sodomy (by which I mean anal sex not sex with animals) etc.. Otherwise good people on both sides of those issues often passionately disagree about those specific moral judgements. Unfortunately, IMHO, the real problem in those cases is that one side then seeks to impose their own personal moral judgement on everyone else.

IMHO, the only absolute morality can be boiled down to the simple golden rule - "Do on to others...". In this situation, that could be interpreted to mean 1) don't cheat on her if you don't want her to cheat on you. However, I take an even looser interpretation of that rule when I apply it in general. My rule is 2) "do whatever you want and feel comfortable doing as long as it does not harm anyone else". So, in this situation, the golden rule could be interpreted to mean 4a) What she doesn't know won't hurt her and its requisite corollary 4b) She can do whatever she wants as well as long as I don't find out about it. IMHO, if you're not okay with the 2nd part than you shouldn't subscribe to the first part and that has nothing to do with morality but rather simple hypocrisy.

In terms of our hobby we often say 5) "whatever goes on between 2 (or more) consenting adults is their own business". The problem with this last moral system when it comes to our hobby is whether your S.O. (whether a chica novia or gringa esposa) consented to your cheating (by definition no or it wouldn't be cheating) and what will happen if she finds out about it (ie, what you do in private at the BM or MP's or whatever no longer stays between just the initially 2 consenting adults and starts to involve a non-consenting one).

But I digress. In terms of the "morality" of a "working girl" (or former one), it matters not whether WE see what they've done as immoral or not. However, it does speak directly to that girl's own personal values system.

Our personal moral judgements aside, you have chicas in countries like CR, raised in catholicism who would never resort to earning a living the way the chicas do in the gulch. Similarly they were raised to beleive in fidelity and the sanctity of marriage. What we or any one thinks about the moral validity of those positions, that is going to impact whether those chicas are likely to cheat on you and how they might react if they were to catch you cheating on them.

OTOH, you also have chicas with looser views of morality, who don't see sex as something to be restricted just between 2 people in love and, certainly in the case of "working girls", have come to view sex as a tool that can be used to gain whatever they desire from the opposite sex. Again no moral value judgements about this last aspect as we do essentially the same thing on the other side by using money as a tool to gain our sexual gratification. But it seems logical to assume that chicas with such a background of exploiting mens' weaknesses may be more likely to be playing you.

Whether it is "moral" or not to practice these positions is beside the point. The mere fact that a chica has a "looser" attitude towards sex and may even use it on occasion (or even all the time) to get what she wants, is a perfectly valid factor in assessing whether it is "okay" to cheat. NOTE: I am not saying that this in fact makes it okay to cheat but rather that it is simply a valid argument in the debate

Let's look at the various scenarios. First, when it comes to a "real" chica (or any chica for that matter), there are 2 things: what they WANT and what they EXPECT. They WANT you to be faithful. In latin culture, they EXPECT that you won't - porque todos hombres son perros. I'll go further and say that they're probably going to think you're cheating on them whether you are or not. Maybe its because that is what latin men do or maybe it is because they watch too many telenovellas. Whatever it is, we have all seen the results. IMHO, this is all part of that fiery emotional chica psyche that we all know and love. The histrionic jealous (and often irrational) outbursts we so often see is just the ugly side of all that. So, in practical terms, the main thing is that IF you do cheat, at least do it in a way that you won't get caught. They'll probably THINK you're cheating no matter what, but in their minds it is better to just have strong suspicions than to be forced to confront the undeniable reality of it. Again, I'm not saying here that it is okay to cheat or not, only what is best to do if you do cheat.

Of course, all of the above advice could apply just as well to "working girls". Where this distinction probably makes more difference is on the flip side, ie whether they might be cheating on you. And I may be wrong but I think it is much more likely that the "working girls" will stray than the "real" ones got the reasons I lay out above. They have tasted the forbidden fruit or easy money and know how to get it.

This brings me to a new issue. Does her cheating or your SUSPICION that she might be justify your cheating on her? If you just suspect she might be cheating based on her past profession and feel justified in cheating on her on that basis, what does that say about your relationship? If your suspicions are based on some more specific evidence than simply her past profession, then you may have slightly more of a basis, but what if you are wrong? Even if you know for a fact that she is cheating on you based on direct evidence, does THAT justify your cheating? Or would it depend on the circumstances? Was she having an affair with emotional attachments (clear infidelity) or were other motivations involved (eg she was only doing it for money)? What if you do little if anything for her support and she goes out and turns some tricks? If you met her and she started out as working girl could you really expect anyhting else of her?Even if you partially or wholly support her, is turning some tricks for money the same thing as seeing other women for simple joy of it? What about the worst case scenario, where it turns out to be more than just a fling by the hour, but you discover there is some other gringo that she has been stringing along and you suspect that she has really been doing the same thing to you? In that case, do you break it off completely or do you say "okay, now I know the score and I'm going to conduct myself accordingly (however that might be)". And, finally, if you catch your chica redhanded, what do you do about it? Do you chastize her and then go off and cheat on her yourself? Or do you use it to establish a new rule that if she is going to do that then you'll do the same (and does she see hooking for money and paying money for sex as being 2 sides of the same coin)?

Assuming, my hypothesis is correct that "real" chica are less apt to cheat, those questions above are also much less likely to apply. So, in the scenario of the "real" chica, the simple answer is IF you're going to cheat do so discreetly and don't get caught. But IMHO it is not really as simple as all that. Just because ticos cheat on their chicas and chicas expect their tico novios to cheat, doesn't make it right for us to do. For one thing, it is possible that one of the main reasons your chica is with you and NOT a tico is specifically because gringos are seen as more often understanding the importance of fidelity. For another thing, whether she finds out or not (or knows for sure), you will. If you've made a promise of fidelity to her, will your personal moral value system allow you to live with the fact that you cheated?

On this last point, most guys split hairs to rationalize their behavior. Bill Clinton, for example, did not consider it sex if it was just a blow job. Is it infidelity if it is purely sexual and there is no emotional element? Are lap dances or even simple flirting cases of infidelity? We each may have our own answers to these questions, but I think we all know how our SO's would see it or we wouldn't need to sneak around to do it. So, it raises the question is it okay to sneak around doing things that we don't really consider unfaithful but that our SO's would?

Getting back to the second scenario of a current or former "working girl" novia is even more complex. If she is still working openly, is it okay to see others? She may see a distinction between doing it for pay and doing it for sexual gratification and that might be enough to disqualify it aas acceptable behavior. Personally, I don't see that great of a distinction. It is sort of a variation on the question of whether there is a distinction between making love and having sex. Personally, I see a much greater distinction there although I'm sure from the female side they wouldn't. So, if she is working having sex with other men purely for money while remaining emotionally faithful to you, why shouldn't you be able to have sex with other women purely for fun while being emotionally faithful to them? Ultimately, it might come down to whatever you agreed to at the start. If you think you'll continue to want to see other women, it is better to delineate that right from the beginning rather than wind up having to sneak around about it later.

What if she is a former "working girl" who is (or at least say she is) out of the business? Reality and past experience suggests that once a chica has tasted that lifestyle and has learned how easy it is to manipulate men for money it is very hard for most of them to give it up. She may start out on the straight and narrow, but the reality is that you have probably as much cause to question what she may be doing as she has of you. And, when you get down to it, what sort of basis is that for a relationship. This is why such relationships are so apt to failure. If you're not supporting her or even still back in the US most of the time, she has even more reason to fall back on her old ways.

IMHO, it is much better in such situations to set realistic expectations on BOTH sides from the outset. For example, "I don't want you to do tricks, but will understand if you do, because I know you need to make money to make ends meet" or "You do what you want, you're the one chica that I love but I'm still going to see other chicas on occasion." OTOH, you could set up the rules as such "I'm going to pay your bills so you don't have to hook, so you better not" or "I'm going to continue to see other chicas, but I'm going to do it in such a way that she doesn't have to find out about it". And such rules may work out perfectly fine for a while. Just don't be too surprised if you discover that she's been stringing along several other gringos like yourself or it she finds out about all the other chicas you've been seeing AND be prepared to accept whatever consequences result.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:28 pm 
PHD From Del Rey University!
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Some excellent observations Pro.

I also did not vote. I have no novia, esposa, or any other type of on-going relationship. I also do not want one. It is a rare occasion that I will even session with the same lady twice on a trip. My last trip out of the twenty women I was with I only sessioned with two more than once.

Even when my ex was cheating on me and I knew it, I would not allow myself to use that as an excuse to break my vows. Oh Lord how I thought about it though. I had made a vow in front of God and family to be faithful through the good and the bad. This time in my life certainly qualified as the bad. What she was doing in no way altered the vow that I made. It was, and is, her cross to bear. I chose the high road, for my beliefs, and am grateful that I did. There was no way that I would lose my beliefs for ten seconds of ecstasy, and a lifetime of remorse. It is just not who I am. IMHO, if I am in a committed relationship, it would always stay monogamous. Should you choose to have other opinions, I honor that. Sex is really over blown in marriage anyway. It is a really only a small part of what makes up a good relationship. If you have sex three times a week, for an hour each time, it is less than two percent of the total time available. The other ninety-eight percent of time had better be worth it.

Whatever your beliefs, the only reason to be in a relationship is to be who you really are. If either of you will not allow the other person to be who they really are, the relationship is doomed to misery, and eventual failure. When one tries to alter who they really are for another to please them, it does not work. the individual is the only one who can make themselves happy. The minute that you begin to give away who you really are to satisfy another, it is time to get out of that relationship.

I have absolutely no desire to ever be in any kind of relationship ever again. I do what I want, when I want. I do not have to ask anyone, for anything. For me, paying for sex is more right than me hammering some Gringa into submission, and then dropping her. As it has been said, when I pay, I pay them to leave. Richer, happier, and hopefully better for the experience.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:52 pm 
PHD From Del Rey University!
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GR-

I've always wanted to be with a girl that "didn't make me look around" well when I was with her for a while, that was the only time in my life I didn't cheat.

I didn't have the energy and knew most girls couldn't get down like this one could anyway.

Outside of that, my feeling is if I'm still looking around or could be easily persuaded to cheat, then that girl is missing something. :idea:

But in all fairness, you gotta be quite the super star for me not to cheat. Not necessarily proud of that, it is what it is...

Cujo

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:59 pm 
Masters Degree in Mongering!
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Sounds like the Novias for many of you guys will want to know about the latest favorite song among the chicas:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=19XmNXeAvIg&feature=related

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:08 am 
I can do CR without a wingman!

Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:34 am
Posts: 291
GR:

Note: I caveat my response with the assumption that we are discussing the varying degrees of infidelity that would be possible between a mongerer and a lovely Del Rey lady in a typical western relationship short of marriage.

First and foremost, if an individual's moral fabrication contains rules about 'cheating' on a hooker (and I use that term honestly), then where do we -- as 'Johns' -- place our own utilization of women trapped into a lifestyle of sex for money on the list? Top, or bottom? The insanity only grows deeper at this point.

Further, I would argue that arranging the anti-moral behaviors that both represent (or most would agree represent - but this indeed is an even deeper and more philosophical discussion) into something that tries to naively conceal the 'lesser' of two evils is akin to choosing poison over a gunshot for suicidal purposes -- both end in the same result. And the result I speak of here is the larger concern that, when asking these types of questions to a base, are you assuming the base have morals similar to your own? My morals are indeed unique (as we all have our own) and complex (as we all are different). I believe your question can be answered by the large majority of people here who may have religious or philosophical beliefs, but I cannot easily provide my own and not simply because I do not have any, but because I can not easily explain or understand them most of the time. I am, in the end, an animal and adopt the mindset that those behaviors of mine which I cannot control aren't meant for control or are controlled by a much more powerful and unknown drive which I can only hope to understand in time, if at all.

You are a chill dude, intelligent -- and I've enjoyed hanging out with you in the past, so understand this isn't a personal reply. It seems like ...


Gangster #1: "Hey, Vito, do ya think we shoulda just lopped of his thumb instead of the whole hand?"

Gangster #2: "Ah, fuggedaboudit, the guy ... he was an asshole anyway."

:shock:

Honor among thieves? Fidelity among filth? Who decides what is moral and what morals are higher and lower than the others? These, my friends, are questions that will be pondered over my next Bavaria and slice of Key Largo hairpie.


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