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Where should any excess whorticulture.info income go?
Anonymously given to help streetchildren in CR 33%  33%  [ 13 ]
Given in the name of CRT to help streetchildren in CR 38%  38%  [ 15 ]
Anonymously given to help to help re-educate prostitutes that want a different life 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
Given in the name of CRT to help to help re-educate prostitutes that want a different life 13%  13%  [ 5 ]
Other (elaborate below) 10%  10%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 40
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 Post subject: Charity
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:17 am 
PHD From Del Rey University!
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Posts: 3985
Location: Tampa, FL
Moved from another thread:
Orange wrote:
-get the VIP membership, if for no other reason than to be able to print out the monger's map of SJ (great guide map); oh, yea, you get discounts too :lol:
Great advice. Anybody that joins CRT as a VIP gets free access to my website and map, but if that's your main reason for joining CRT I'd also like to encourage them to consider joining by clicking on the CRT banner on my site. That way a small portion of your CRT membership fee will go to encourage and support my site and its expansion. So far I'm about halfway to recovering my startup costs and once I do, just as promised, any excess will be given to a CR charity group.

Sparkchaser69 suggested the Send Circus to CR Fund :D

No, it would be the "Send Prolijo to CR" fund before I did that :twisted:

Seriously, I'm open to suggestions. Here's what I'm looking for:
    1) It should be CR based and/or most if not all of its expenditures should be earmarked for CR (as I add more non-CR content to my site this might change).

    2) It shouldn't be involved at all in an anti-mainstream sex tourism campaign. Anti-child sexploitation is okay, even desirable. Unfortunately, I'm not sure there are many if any that don't confuse the two.

    3) Preferably, it should deal with issues that are tangential to what we do as a way to show we're concerned with those issues but AREN'T part of them, such as the problems of women and Ch*ldren in CR.
One example could be groups that work with streetchildren and the related problems of drug addiction, street prostitution, vagrancy or homelessness. We should never do anything that encourages a market for streetwalkers or beggars in CR. We certainly shouldn't use streetwalkers given the availablity of other better and safer options. And we should save our charity in that area for agencies that see that our money is well spent. The work of a woman named Lopez is one possibility http://www.amcostarica.com/060402.htm

Or it could be a group that teaches marketable job skills to prostitutes that really want to get out of the sex=trade (mostly streetwalkers and low-end brothel workers). I feel that we shouldn't ever knowingly go with a prostitute who really doesn't want to be in that line of work AND truly has NO other choices or is being coerced to do what she is doing. I DON'T think that definition applies to the vast majority of gringo bar or MP girls. If we do encounter such a girl, we should want to find a way to really help her out, without just throwing money money down some W.U. blackhole. I thought I had found a possibilty at http://www.fundacionrahab.org. Their site contains a couple of references to sex tourism, but their focus is much more on the supply side. Still, I'd much prefer one that is more neutral as to sex tourism.

The problem I'm having is finding any groups that completely satisfy all 3 of those conditions or that don't turn out to be another Casa Alianza type operation. I'm sorry about hijacking this thread (maybe I should start a new one) but really want to hear any ideas you guys might have. One more question, if I find a suitable charity should I make the contribution anonymously or in the name of us as a group (either CRT or a more generic group of "Gringo Sex Tourists")?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:13 pm 
PHD From Del Rey University!

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:04 pm
Posts: 2667
Prolijo,

I agree with your thinking & might add some thoughts.

I am all for helping the Ch*ldren to teach them how to help themselves or let them see the ways of the world so they can make better decisions’ on their own. Trying to change adults that are already formed & making their own conscious decisions is nuts I believe. Let it be? Who are we to try to push our ways on them? Let it be what nature has created as this has been the way it has been since time began. :shock:

I think going down to look for a sex worker (main reason most of us go) & then act like it is wrong for her to work like this & try to save her is confusing at best? Why don't we look for women in churches I bet if we are honest with ourselves it is because we know we wouldn't have the same success as the gulch? When I was a little boy I use to fall asleep all the time in church & today I never want to sleep in the gulch this tells me something?

I never try to entice anyone to do something they don't want to do (don't have to). These people may not be the brightest people on the planet but they have figured out how men work & what they want & throw it out right in front of us. Who's exploiting who? Life is always going to have poverty as it is a chosen way for many due mainly I feel out of mans inherent laziness. :D

Zipp

PS My first trip I was just thirsty & went in to get a beer but came out 30 minutes later with 2 hot Chicas now look what they have done to me? :shock: :evil: :D Can I sue someone they made me do it? :wink: :D I think all CRTers have made their fair share of donations to CHARITY! I know I have & boy do I FEEL GOOD! :D


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:55 pm 
PHD From Del Rey University!
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Zippy,
I agree that if we really want to have a longterm impact our best bet is to intercede at the very beginning when Ch*ldren are younger rather than later in life after much of the damage has already been done (and passed on to the next generation). That is why my main form of personal charity is to sponsor Ch*ldren in different parts of the world (Bolivia, Mali, Banda Aceh & Thailand).

In CR, many Ch*ldren become victims of incest and other forms of abuse in their homes. Some runaway to live on the streets and end up resorting to drugs or alcohol to cope and begging, stealing (los chapulines) and/or prostitution to survive. Some, while still in their early teens or even younger become pregnant by relatives (who undoubtedly deny repsonsibility)or tico "boyfriends" who, being equally unprepared for parenthood and unable to support the girl or her baby, simply abandon them. Usually they're forced to leave school and find some way to care for and support the Ch*ld on their own or with the help of their own mother, who may have had a similar history. Sometimes they resort to prostitution to make ends meet. This basic story is nothing new to most vets around here.

Where our views differ is with your comment "I think going down to look for a sex worker (main reason most of us go) & then act like it is wrong for her to work like this & try to save her is confusing at best?" I think you're a little confused. Helping a woman who doesn't want to be a prostitute to find a way out is not the same thing as saying prostitution is wrong. That is something for each person involved in it to decide for themselves. Also nobody is talking about going out and "pushing our ways on them". There is no need to. The ones that like what they're doing and the money it produces are unlikely to be convinced anyway. And there are far more that ALREADY want to change than there are resources to help them.

Clearly there are at least some women in this business who really don't like what they're doing and would gladly do something else if they thought they could make enough to support themselves and their K*ds. Those are the ones these programs seek to help. There are many more who aren't crazy about it, but do it for the money they can make. These are more often the ones that we find in the gringo bars and higher end MP's. They could find other jobs but choose prostitution because it means more money for less work (they're basically lazy or greedy). Those are the ones some gringos try to "save". Nearly always in vain because they either don't really want to be saved and are just scamming those guys or at least don't want it enough. Finally there are those who really enjoy this sort of work, but they're undoubtedly far fewer than we would like to believe. Just ask yourself would you want to make your living screwing old fat gringas?

Rather than wire money so your novia doesn't have to work at the BM while you're not there (As if she wouldn't just take the money AND work there anyway behind your back for even more money), or pay for a school she probably won't attend or offer to help her find work that she'll suddenly lose interest in, doesn't it make more sense to give money to a program that helps provide marketable job skills to women that really want to get out of the business. Usually these are women that are low-end prostitutes that eke out a living on the streets, or work in high-volume low cost tico brothels where they get slam-bammed over and over all day long for no more than what a BM chica makes in just an hour or aging prostitutes who after years selling their bodies find themselves with no savings and declining income as their beauty fades. It is especially because of our special connection to this hobby that we should want to be behind helping those women who really don't want to be in it to get out. I just thought you guys should understand this before you write this option off.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:00 pm 
PHD From Del Rey University!

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:04 pm
Posts: 2667
Prolijo,

I am like you with most of this. The only way to really help I believe is to help protect & educate the innocent. I really feel for the K*ds that don't get a fair shake on this planet & we have many here in the USA like this. It is very hard to save the world & where does one start. I do my part where I can other wise I feel my life has no meaning at all.

Your
Quote:
Helping a woman who doesn't want to be a prostitute to find a way out is not the same thing as saying prostitution is wrong. That is something for each person involved in it to decide for themselves.


This is a 52 million $ puzzle isn't it? I have seen instances of girls over 18 masturbating to orgasm watching a porn as regularly as any young guy with a playboy mag. They didn't know someone else was in the house so I know this to be real! Many women do like it just like us but are they going to admit it? I doubt it as they want to appear to be so called good women. Think about it orgasm is orgasm in male or female it is pure pleasure for both & who doesn't enjoy this feeling totally. There are far more women that masturbate than we want to believe I bet because they don't want to deal with our controlling shit we men dish out. There are far more means in CR than prostitution it is not a totally impoverished country. Most chose this route because #1 they are lazy & #2 sex is not that taboo. Who knows what is right or wrong all I do is spend time with what is openly legally offered too me that seems to enjoy my company. :D

Zip

PS WHo really knows what a woman wants as it changes every 5 minutes?? :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:52 pm 
PHD From Del Rey University!
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YO, Damn.....I got a post page.....Hurry

YO Prolijo:

I commend your intent and applaud your work in this area but I've been involved in several world help funded programs over the years. Sadly, most have squandered the funds and little went to the Ch*ldren or parents it was intended for. I finally returned to helping those unfortunate in this country. I have sponsored families locally first hand thereby seeing the fruits of my investment.

Assisting "working women" in third world countries will only be pouring dinero into a black hole. Sorry, but I have a different perspective as to that. I have helped a few in CR but by not living there was not able to make sure they used the funds appropriately. They did not !!!

I need to end this post and start another one because I am having trouble with this time thing. Continued.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:55 pm 
PHD From Del Rey University!

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:04 pm
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Circus,

Your
Quote:
Assisting "working women" in third world countries will only be pouring dinero into a black hole.


I agree with this & don't even try to tell these women how they should spend their HARD earned money (at least it is earned money) but I see it different as it is throwing money down a PINK hole not a black hole too me. :D

Zippy


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:07 pm 
PHD From Del Rey University!
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YO ...Me again.

As I was saying, I am convinced that if a person who wants to help people in 3rd world countries and know that their dinero is spent for the right things......THEY NEED TO BE THERE TO POLICE THE WAY THE FUNDS ARE ALLOCATED. Also, to visit the families and be hands on. Just speaking from experience. There is so much suffering in the world and fortunately the U.S. tops the list in contributions to Aid throughout the world......wish we received more credit.

I am a firm believer that charity starts at home, after family obligations of course. Not only do we who have food and shelter and additional funds, need to help our fellow human beings, we first need to take a look around our own community and see what we can do in person......not just money. This should be an individual effort not a requirement. We give too much in taxes that is wasted on failed programs....All Politicians included. Unless you take time to indulge you will never know how great it feels to take a basket of cooked food to a family in need, sit down and share in conversation with them.......and not act as you are giving them charity.....you interact as one of them. Damn, you are one of them. Even better is to help with home repairs or furniture. Not to mention.....giving toys to parents so they can give them in person to their Ch*ldren........PRICELESS.

Just my 2 cents worth. Geezzzz, I made it this far .......Damn, had to re-type this again .......Ughhhhh


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:51 pm 
PHD From Del Rey University!

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:04 pm
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All this stuff is good & well meant but if you don't control unwanted births then you have little control over anything at all. Like plugging the leak from the wrong side of the dam! The only way I see to stop the world from suffering is to have a concerted logical plan for all humans & that is never going to happen period. So what controls humans are the sufferings they create for themselves which doesn't have to be but is a fact of life. Humans just look at me a very flawed design indeed!

Does anyone remember the group 10 YEARS AFTER & their song I would love to change the world but don't know what to do so I leave it upto you?

I really admire people with their convictions to help the world I just question whether they are making a real difference. I just pick a few that I can personally help & the warm smile I get & excitement they show mean a lot to me. But sometimes I feel like a dog chasing his tail so I do spent time chasing real tail & tickling my brain before I pass back thru the pink hole.

Hey my 3 cents,

Zippy

PS Probably the fastest way to fix our little Colony on planet Earth is to hope aliens arrive & they don't need us or our planet & only come in peace to straighten us out as mans flawed religions & flawed governments can not find the way as is proved by all the on going human suffering, by all the wars & different ideas that will never come together except to fight each others beliefs. For man to mature to the next step of the latter on his own I believe he has to give up some of his primitive beliefs that hold him down & when is that going to happen? Maybe when Del Rey freezes over? :D :lol: :o :shock:

Time to go as I guess I probably stirred up a hornets nest? :D :shock:


Last edited by Zippy on Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: CRT helping lose ninos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:15 pm 
PHD From Del Rey University!
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My vote is to set up some sort of educational charity or basic sustenance assistance to very young ones, say birth through seven or eight years.

In order to reach chil-dren, we must make sure that their basic life's necessities, food, shelter, medical care and education are addressed. Education fails when bellies are empty. Also, getting aid to the youngest ones just feels better somehow.

I say put the CRT stamp on it, because part of the unofficial effort of this group, it seems to me is to promote ourselves as a group of gentlemen. Gentlemen are by definition also philanthropists, IMHO.

Also, I don't know how nonprofit incorporations work in Costa Rica, but forming an officially-recognized charity might give the founder/administrator certain tax advantages. It should be done completely above-board in any case, in order to avoid allegations of impropriety (i.e. the beneficiary of today is the grateful hooker of tomorrow...)

I also agree that money might be better spent closer to home, but we all have seen the pitiable conditions in which many of these innocents live. Even a drop in the bucket goes farther to quench this kind of thirst than a dry nothing.

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Pura Vulva! Wandering through the dark, I am El Ciego.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:28 pm 
PHD From Del Rey University!

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:04 pm
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Putting the CRT stamp on it maybe perceived by outside people seeing us feeling guilty about what we do & it is to help cleans our sins so to speak in their eyes. I believe the most class way to give is the Anonymous way thus you prove you have no hidden agenda & are truly giving for the right reasons. Just some other strange thoughts in my weird thought process?

Zippy


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:41 pm 
I can do CR without a wingman!

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:53 pm
Posts: 258
Location: "Land of the Ice Queens w lawyers"
Help the chil-dren.
Anonymous.
Your discretion.
right heart...right attitude...
Vote your conscience.

protect the innocent. Feed k*ds.

recognition ruins it.

KS

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:54 pm 
Ticas ask me for advice!

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:48 pm
Posts: 357
Location: chicago area
Prolijo,

First of all let me commend you for your noble intentions. Most just "talk the talk".

Secondly, something my father (who has passed and I miss him very much) said to me and practiced, was that if you want to really help someone do it on an individual basis; that way you are assured that the money, food etc is truly getting to the person(s) that need it.

My opinion then is that YOU should decide case by case and do so as your heart and conscience dictate.

Pax,
Sluthog


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:27 am 
Masters Degree in Mongering!

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:31 pm
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Prolijo,

Kudos to you for not being the greedy bastard I am. I applaud your altruism considering all the work you put into your site and the detailed help you provide to anyone who asks on CRT. Capitalism living up to the noblesse oblige principle.

Perhaps that nun in front of the DR could help channel the funds. :lol:

RHM

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:33 am 
PHD From Del Rey University!
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Here is my reponse to some of your comments. I've tried to organize it so you can choose to read only the parts that interest you.

1) Re: this being my personal decision. KS and Slut, I realize this is at my discretion and that I can decide. However, the way I see it whether I do this anonymously or in the name of whorticulturists everywhere, its also in a way a contribution from all of you. Any profit my site makes comes from either donations of others or commissions from anyone joining CRT through my site. The draw is the information here and the information I largely derived from all of you and incorporated in the Map. So at the very least I'd like to consider all your opinions.

2) Re: taking credit Zippy, some may see it as guilt money. Others will see it to mean exactly what it does, that we're just as concerned about these issues as anyone else, if not more so. I can't help about the cynics, but they've already made up their minds about us anyway. So where's the harm there. As for the others, maybe that will change a few minds. We can't just ignore the problem, or go on denying that at least some creeps walk amongst us when we're down in CR. We have to show that we're willing to be proactive and do something to address the problems ourselves or someone else will be more likely to do it for us in ways that we may not care for.

I agree anonymity is usually the classiest way to go (notice I never mentioned doing this in the name of Prolijo). Sometimes I make my personal contributions that way, sometimes I don't (mainly for tax reasons). But that doesn't mean I'm making contributions just to get a tax break. And this doesn't mean we're doing this just to try to send some sort of message, but if we can do it and have it make some positive effect on the perceptions of others as well as helping the Ch*ldren or whatever, why not?

Frankly, I'm more concerned about whether to bring in the CRT name (which is a basically a private business) without its consent. If I were to go non-anonymous route at all it would more likely be under some assumed name like the "American Sex Tourists Relief Organization" (ASTRO).

3) Re: local giving Circus's commented about charity beginning at home: There are certainly valid arguments for local giving. I think giving where it is needed most is equally valid. I already pay taxes, most of which go to domestic aid programs rather than overseas. One might question the effectiveness of government spending, but the problem is not one of funding relative to the funding and relative need overseas. Having been to numerous 3rd world countries including Haiti (the poorest country in the this half of the world) and Cambodia (a country devastated by years of war and genocide), I know directly there is little in this country that compares to the need of those other places. There is certainly hunger in the US, but there is widespread starvation in other countries. In this country we worry about diseases of aging or ones brought on by our own unhealthy lifestyles. In other countries they suffer from high rates of infant mortality and diseases that result from the lack of clean water or the availability of cheap medicines. I'd also argue that making a contribution in CR is making a contribution close to home. Most of us go there regularly. Some of us even live there. We've all made friends with Tico's and enjoyed their hospitality. This is our chance to give something back to a country that has given so much to us.

4) Re: direct personal giving. Several of you made comments about doing this directly on a personal basis rather in a more organized manner through an established charity. The most that I'd be able to do would be to make a few handouts. As many have seen or learned for themselves, just giving money to a "working girl" is like throwing money down a black (or pink hole). It wouldn't be much different giving it anywhere else. Certainly one could not expect street people either in CR or the US to be any more responsible.

5) Re: El C's suggestion on setting up a semi-organized CRT charity. At this point in time the amount of excess funds we're talking about is not enough to establish some sort of CRT foundation. I've also thought about CRT starting some sort of group charity effort like a "Toys for Tots" program where we give out gifts to our chica's ninos at christmas time. Talk about the danger of others misreading our intentions. I don't think too much direct involvement with Ch*ldren is a particularly good idea. We could also have a give-away program of food, clothing and household goods to our chicas, but I don't see that being much different from the individual efforts some of us are already doing. I'm not thinking about charity for chicas that we're already paying very well for their services. I'm thinking of charity for those that really want out of the business and for those that might otherwise be drawn into the business and then trapped there due to circumstances beyond their control.

6) Re: control over spending. Some have tried to establish some sort of control to see the money goes for what it was intended, with at best limited success. For example, paying the money directly to a school for a chica's tuition. It still winds up wasted when she drops out or fails to study. Isn't it better to give money to a training program to educate women that really want to be there and apply themselves? It works the same here in the US. One can give money to a needy family or even buy them groceries to see it is spent right. It doesn't change the fact that just frees up the limited money they have themselves to spend on lottery tickets, Mad Dog or whatever. And no amount of personal involvement short of living with them and monitoring their expenditures 24/7 is going to change that. When it comes to charity most of us have more money than time available to give and we're not going to have the type of time to oversee our contributions whereever it is going than the established charities have. When it comes to charity, no matter what form, a certain amount of waste is inevitable. That doesn't mean we should stop trying.

7) Re: squandered funds. Circus talked about how most of the international aid agencies he has been involved with squander their funds. I'm sorry that has been his experience. The same could be said for many domestic agencies as well. Stories like that is why I'm careful about who I give to. I don't have the time to personally monitor charities, whether overseas, here at home or ones I'm directly involved with. And its not really necessary. There are independent watchdog groups that already do that for me.http://www.charitywatch.org and http://www.charitynavigator.org are just 2 of them. The charities I give to all get 4 stars and an AIP rating of A or better. In contrast, the local United Way in my area gets only 2 stars and the Habitat for Humanity that I've actually done volunteer work for only gets 1 star. Don't even get me started on the various outfits like the PBA which if you're lucky gets 1 penny of every dollar you send http://www.newtimesbpb.com/Issues/2005-03-10/news/news2.html.

8) Re: sponsorship agencies. Circus also made a comment about sponsorship money not going to the Ch*ldren and family it was intended. I hope not. I realize the Ch*ldren are only a marketing approach to personalize and humanize what your donation is for. Actually, I never intended my donations to be spent that way. I already explained above why direct payments are not the best way to go. Collective efforts are much more effective, paying for supplies and local labor to build such things as wells, schools and clinics or supplying power generators so farmers can learn modern farming techniques from satellite broadcasts beamed into their new community television set.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:03 pm 
I can do CR without a wingman!

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:53 pm
Posts: 258
Location: "Land of the Ice Queens w lawyers"
Nice job, Prolijo.
I have no doubt that the right situation will present itself, and that you will ultimately do something positive with it.
That's what I like about you, and the guys of this board.
Pura Vida

KS

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