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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:34 am 
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Today's www.amcostarica.com reported on page 1 today that Ticos are really being choked by credit card interest.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:49 am 
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Canada has credit cards in the 20% zone.
50% yeah, thats a bit harsh.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:41 am 
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Credit card interest in CR while very high it is much less then the terms offered by retailers such as Hypermas, Hogar Feliz, Gollo, etc. They charge 60% on purchases were you make a small down payment and then 2 payments a month. The payments coincide with Tico payday.

That unfortunately is a business model used worldwide. Hard working folks who hold low paying jobs can not afford to purchase basic items like a refrigerator, stove, washing machine and do not have credit cards so merchants give them easy terms that wind up costing more in interest then the item cost originally.

The U.S. merchants when laws were passed prohibiting such usurious terms turned to "Rent-To-Own". Same deal just a different name.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:48 am 
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I don't think it's as easy to get credit cards there as it is here either. Nobody on my wife's side has a credit card. Their house is paid off. Basically, they live debt free, they only buy what they can afford with the money they have in their wallet. That way of life probably seems strange to many of us because we have gotten so accustomed to buying whatever we want, whenever we want. And to owing money.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:57 am 
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That is a good point. And now we are seeing the fallout of living beyond our means for so long. It is a totally unsustainable economic system that we have in America.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:48 am 
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Actually credit card usage by Ticos is booming as BCR, BN and Credomatic are actively seeking clients.

Ticos are fast becoming a buy now pay later consumer based economy. Sure there are families like the one Orange points out but just like happened in the U.S. as that older generation dies off the younger generation enthusiastically jumps on the credit card buy now pay later bandwagon.

In case you could not find it this is the article VB referred to.

Quote:
Tico credit card debt is approaching $1 billion
By the A.M. Costa Rica staff

Costa Ricans have borrowed heavily on their credit cards, and the estimate of total revolving credit debt is just short of $1 billion: $999,843,679, based on Monday's exchange rate.

In colons, the debt is an astounding 571,910,584,442 or 571 billion. That means every Costa Rican, adult and Ch*ld owes an average of $222. And that does not count mortgages or other consumer debt like auto loans.

This was the report form the Ministerio de Economía, Industría y Comercio which issued another report on credit cards in the country. Some are charging more than 50 percent annual interest.

The ministry, which tracks consumer issues, reported that there were 401 different types of credit cards in the country and that the interest rates varies by as much as 30 percent per year.
The statistics are based on the 1.4 million credit cards in the country in February. The ministry said that the outstanding credit card dept was enough to build 29,000 homes worth 20 million colons each, about $35,000.

Amazingly, this amount represents just 25 percent of the total credit lines of the various card holders, according to ministry statistics. About 40 percent of the credit cards have been issued in the last two years, said the ministry. There was no information on arrears.

However, the card that carried the highest interest, some 50.4 percent, was a Visa denominated in colons issued by Tarjetas BCT S.A. Credomatic has six cards that carry a rate of 49.56 percent.

On the other end of the scale, Citi Tarjetas issues a Visa with a 20 percent annual rate, and Banco Nacional is close behind with a series of Visa and Mastercards with 22 percent annual interest rates.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:04 pm 
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Haywood Jablommi wrote:
That is a good point. And now we are seeing the fallout of living beyond our means for so long. It is a totally unsustainable economic system that we have in America.
It is fashionable right now to decry the recent use of credit in the US right now, but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. There IS a happy medium between living beyond one's means and living a completely pay as you go existence. Not ALL people who use credit use credit irresponsibly.

For example, I bought my house with a 20% down payment and a 30yr FIXED rate mortgage. I was able to do this because I only bought a house whose monthly payments I could AFFORD (roughly equivalent to what HAD been paying for rent). It would have been hard if not impossible for me to have made that purchase at that time if I couldn't have borrowed the bulk of the cost of the house. Since then I haven't been late on a single payment and have 75% equity in my house. Similarly, my current car was purchased with a dealer financed 1%APR 3yr loan. Again, I didn't purchase more car than the payments I could afford, never missed a payment and today the loan is paid in full. If I couldn't have borrowed, I would either have had to buy an even more modest car or used money that I had in investments that were returning much more than 1%/yr at the time.

In fact, whenever you can gain more benefit/return (adjusted for risk) from something than what it costs you to purchase/invest in it, it pays to make that purchase/investment. This is what is known as "leveraging". The problem in the US with many, but not ALL, people is NOT credit ITSELF but how they USED it.
1) Buying more than you can even afford to make payments on, or barely afford to make payments on (in which case any interruption or drop in income puts you at incredible risk.
2) Making payments barely affordable by borrowing on an adjustable rate loan and not really worrying about what happens when those initial low teaser rates balloon.
3) Relying on housing prices ALWAYS going up forever and ever, as the thing that could bail them out if it turned out they could no longer make their payments.
4) Borrowing for things that you don't really need or offer any real return or savings, e.g. power boats and other "toys", expensive vacations, etc. as opposed to necessities such as modest roof over your head, a sensible vehicle that you need to get to work, essential home appliances, etc.
5) Carrying balances on high interest credit cards because of making unessential purchases, rather than paying them off every month.

Durable goods like housing, cars, refrigerators, etc. have a useful life greater than just one financial period. Buying on credit enables the consumer to match his expenses with benefits of those purchases. It also enables merchants to sell items that they wouldn't otherwise be able to find many customers who could afford to pay the full price outright. Charging SOME level of interest is perfectly understandable for 3 reasons: 1) to cover expected inflation, 2) to cover risk of default by the borrower and 3) to cover a REASONABLE profit for the lending institution. Some merchants will even absorb all or part of the interest as one of their incentives to customers. That is no different really than offering any upfront discount to cash buyers. Some buyers are not particularly creditworthy, in which case a higher interest rates are justified to protect the lenders against losses from those borrowers who default.

So the basic concept and theory of benefits of consumer lending are still very sound. The PROBLEM is with how some (or many) people involved in consumer lending in the US went too far (okay, crazy). And that applies to BOTH the borrowers AND the foolish lenders who in many cases pushed credit on people that they knew, or should have known, shouldn't have gotten it. If you have a FICO score over 700, you SHOULD be getting a lot of CC offers in the mail, but the CC companies were pushing cards on people barely out of bankruptcy or with no credit history at all. And we all know about "liar loans" where both lender and borrowers were complicit in taking out loans that they did not really qualify for, no money down loans or even 110-20% home loans which did not consider the possible, or in fact inevitable, drop in overly inflated home prices. In most cases in the US, the problem was not that interest rates were too high or usurious, but that they weren't high ENOUGH. If they were made as high as they should have been for the least creditworthy or the already overextended, those who really couldn't afford what they were borrowing money for probably wouldn't have taken the loan or made the purchase and we wouldn't have seen as many defaults AND the lenders would have made enough on such loans to cover whatever defaults they still would have had. Instead, people who never should have gotten the loans that they did defaulted, the banks that made the loans (or wound up with them) got stuck with losses and now the banks are trying to recoup by sticking EVERYONE with higher rates and fees.

We're talking about an entirely DIFFERENT problem with the nature of loans to Ticos (and poor people in the US). The question is not one of interest rates being too low for the level of risk involved but whether they are too high. In the US, Rent-a-centers were an example that was already given. Pawn shops are another. Factoring is the high rate/fee alternative for credit poor businesses. And, of course, there is also the "underground banking system" aka loansharks. Because "legitmate" lending institutions usually won't lend to poor people (or those with bad credit) at the rates they're limited to, these other outlets mentioned above move in to fill the gap. Because these other outlets are not regulated in the same way that "legitmate" lending institutions are and their desperate customers have few other choices, they can take advantage and charge just about whatever they think their market segment is willing to pay. Whether their loss ratio really justifies those rates or not is, IMHO, highly questionable.

Similar factors probably drive lending in CR, but there are additional ones for countries like CR, particularly lack of transparency and lack of regulation. Banks aren't regulated like they are in the US. Bankruptcy laws are also different. Financial records both on the lender and borrower side are highly suspect, if they exist at all. And, because of much higher poverty rates and a much higher portion of the population living closer to the financial edge, more people who want to borrow are naturally also much higher credit risks based purely on income. Banks can't tell with any real degree of reliability how likely their credit applicants are to pay so they charge more to cover the higher uncertainty/risk.

Last comment, some gringos express astonishment that these types of interest charges exist in places like CR, but it is no surprise to me. It is actual pretty typical for 3rd world lending institutions. And these are just the rates being charged by the "legitimate" Tico banks. Factoring agencies and neighborhood loan sharks probably charge even more. This is why I always felt that it was at least possible that the Villalobos Brother's claims that their 40% rates of return were from factoring, rather than from a long term pyramid scheme and that it only collapsed because their accounts were frozen by greedy tico officials, the IRS (seeking unreported income of gringo expats) and the DEA (thinking it was drug money laundering).


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:23 pm 
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Orange wrote:
I don't think it's as easy to get credit cards there as it is here either. Nobody on my wife's side has a credit card. Their house is paid off. Basically, they live debt free, they only buy what they can afford with the money they have in their wallet. That way of life probably seems strange to many of us because we have gotten so accustomed to buying whatever we want, whenever we want. And to owing money.



Do you think they listen to Dave Ramsey?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:46 pm 
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Prolijo wrote:
Haywood Jablommi wrote:
That is a good point. And now we are seeing the fallout of living beyond our means for so long. It is a totally unsustainable economic system that we have in America.
It is fashionable right now to decry the recent use of credit in the US right now, but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. There IS a happy medium between living beyond one's means and living a completely pay as you go existence. Not ALL people who use credit use credit irresponsibly.

Not all, but MOST do.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:23 am 
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Versatile wrote:
Orange wrote:
I don't think it's as easy to get credit cards there as it is here either. Nobody on my wife's side has a credit card. Their house is paid off. Basically, they live debt free, they only buy what they can afford with the money they have in their wallet. That way of life probably seems strange to many of us because we have gotten so accustomed to buying whatever we want, whenever we want. And to owing money.



Do you think they listen to Dave Ramsey?


They should.The fundamental problem with credit cards is they inspire people to buy crap they cannot afford.Just pay over time.Seems great, doesn't it? But the crap you bought is depreciating by the day.Be it clothes, cd's,electronics, whatever.Yet you are plugging away paying a sizeable interest rate on an item that you will want to replace in a year.And will be worth less than a quarter of what you paid for it.So the fruit of your labors (money) goes back to credit card companies, car payments, etc.Pretty much everybody but you. While this sounds like a great deal to many, the more you give Visa and your auto lender, the less you invest toward your retirement. As to Prolijo's fear of having to buy a less desirable car by not taking out a loan. Want to live like a rich guy?Warren Buffet lives in the same small home in Omaha he has had for 50 years.Sam Walton (Wal-Mart) drove a old Ford pickup till he was not able to drive anymore.I have a long time friend and mentor her in Vegas.He was a furrier in NYC for 40 years and invested in many apartment communities as well.His car is a Rolls he bought at an auction for 8k.15 years old. Shops exclusively at thrift stores and buys his food at the most no frills discount store he can find.Net worth?Around 300 million.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:26 am 
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Orange wrote:
Prolijo wrote:
Haywood Jablommi wrote:
That is a good point. And now we are seeing the fallout of living beyond our means for so long. It is a totally unsustainable economic system that we have in America.
It is fashionable right now to decry the recent use of credit in the US right now, but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. There IS a happy medium between living beyond one's means and living a completely pay as you go existence. Not ALL people who use credit use credit irresponsibly.

Not all, but MOST do.
I'm not sure about "MOST", but certainly FAR TOO MANY. My point was that it was not "we", as there were at least SOME OF US who used our credit responsibly and lived within our means. Credit card and mortgage default rates are way too at ~12%, many others are not quite in default but are in distress. That still leaves quite a few people like myself (and hopefully most of the rest of you) who did not live beyond our means. Unfortunately, we ca't say the same thing about what our government has been doing in our name.
MrLasVegas wrote:
... As to Prolijo's fear of having to buy a less desirable car by not taking out a loan. ...
Let's get this straight, I was talking about OTHER people. I'm CERTAINLY not afraid to buy less car than I can afford. I've purchased cars in full many times in my life. The last car I purchased, I paid mostly cash and trade-in. The balance I financed only because I was offered a 1.9% 3 year loan which was much less than I was making at the time on my investments. That was just good economic sense. The monthly payments were WELL within my means. In fact, I saw many of my peers with similar incomes at the time buying Lexus's and gas guzzling SUV's (or sometimes leasing new ones every other year). Today, I STILL own the same car even though it has over 100K miles on it. The body and interior are in pretty decent shape, it runs well and maintenance costs are far less than a new car payment would be AND its been completely paid off now for over 5 years.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:34 pm 
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Maybe I've written about this before but I haven't used a credit card since 1990. I was like many a enslaved to the credit cards that kept appearing in my mailbox. I had an assinine amount of credit card debt. I paid for most things with the credit cards, rarely did I use cash. I was laid off of my job late in 1989 and was not gainfully employed for the better part of two years. During that time I declared bankruptcy. It cost about $700 to do it at that time. Of course that money came from a cash advance, though I had to wait 45 days after getting it before I could file. After the bankruptcy was filed and approved I swore I would never again buy anything on credit.

I've kept that promise. I was able to keep my home in the bankruptcy. My house was bought in an era when people wern't buying homes for stupid prices because they could get a low intrest rate. Fortunately I was back at work a few months after the bankruptcy.

I never buy a new car. Most I have owned since 1990 have been 3 years old and I pay cash. I've kept the cars an average of five years. I figure I've saved loads of money not paying interest on car loans. BTW I'm a fan Subaru's and look for ones that have been well maintained. I sell them when major repairs become too regular since their expensive to work on.

Since I'm single and have no other real responsibilities it's probably easier for me not to use credit. Those married and with Ch*ldren have all kinds of emergencies that require immeadiate payment. I would guess it would be almost impossible to do without credit.

Oh yeah, I guess I'm missing free air miles. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:15 pm 
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Oh yeah, I guess I'm missing free air miles. :D
The only reason I have one, use it for everything including business to rack up miles and pay it off every month.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:29 pm 
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The only reason anyone in this country has anything at all is thanks to credit... Ticos will finance a $12 toaster if they can. The interest rates are insane, and most the middle class will be paying their interest off until they die, without ever getting out of debt. The ticos I know spend like madmen on credit, and are happy only making enough money to pay the minimums on their cards...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:10 am 
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Last week I stopped into Pops ice cream on Avenida Central near Teatro National for a little treat. What transpired blew me away........ There were three people ahead of me in line to order. When the first person seemed to be at the counter for quite some time I looked to see what was going on. Well the guy was paying for his 800 col. ice cream cone WITH A CREDIT CARD. So the chica behind the counter had to check everything including his cedula and write down the numbers on his slip. No wonder it took a while. When the SAME THING happened to the next 2 customers I found it hard to believe. Doesn't anyone have CASH in this Country?


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