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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:40 am 
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So that makes 4 amigas at your little party? Just curious, are these girls programmers, civs, in-betweeners or a sort of random mix? In any case sounds like a great time and hopefully you'll find a favorite and mambo in short order. It's so nice though if Plan A doesn't pan you always have plans B or C. Or even combining plans. Hopefully you can keep the inevitable little dramas under control. Then again a little drama with these chicas is part of the pull after all, and can lead to amazing things when you get them alone.

Being away from LAm I'm gettting into work mode now and miss it all (so much). But afterall it is the work that provides the resources to play when worktime is over so you live with it.

Side note and OT I think the best and happiest times for men in history and before were the ages of the hunter-gatherer (there are a few groups left but dwindling rapidly). Back in those days it was a simple exchange of food for sex. You just had to be a physically decent specimen and survive to adulthood, then as long as you were not mauled by a wild beast you had it made. Life was free of all the modern BS and complexity that began with the advent of agriculture, and humans where healthy and prosperous in a different and more natural way:
http://www.eco-action.org/dt/affluent.html

But there's no going back...in the industrial/capitalist civ we have it takes money and good comparative status to get women so you gotta go for that and live with and deal with all the crap that goes with achieving it.

Good luck and have fun!

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viva...don't want no blue eyes
la loma...I want brown eyes...rica...I'm in a state
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 12:27 pm 
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LittleKing, that's a complicated piece and not easy to casually read and comprehend.


The premise of this thread is wrong still. While sex is a basic need it's primary purpose is for what? That more of it is not more easily available to the "average" guy for the purpose of his gratification on many levels means what, that there is something wrong with the way we live? If you polled American men I bet a vast majority would not want a culture where 50 year old men are having threesomes with economically deprived young girls. Yes, most single men might, duh. But if you take a look around most men are looking for stable relationships with a normal, balanced, happy wife. A lot of us would like to have better, safe, casual sexual availability, probably. But what is not happening here is not happening in most of Europe, India, Australia, or most likely Asia as a cultural imperative either. The fact is most of us guys want, for a variety of reasons, and need, as a matter of genetics, sex much more often than women. The fact that it is available in Latin and South America is a good thing imo but hardly an indictment of American culture and could easily be an indictment of theirs. We however covet the availability of sex with many women. Again, a look inside is not a bad thing.

If it's so great over there or if sex is so important, go live there. Interestingly though, most guys wouldn't do it. Why? Well, they want the economic advantages that go with living here but they want the sexual availability that go with the economic disadvantage of the cultures there. That's kind of interesting, isn't it? Also, unless you're financially independent if you were to go there and live "as one of them" you would likely lose the advantage you have to attract women because of your economic place and the mystique would be all but gone. IOW, suddenly you're not as attractive them. We all don't want to think about that now, do we?

America has never been all that different and has never been all that different from the European culture from which it descended. We can talk about how women have taken control and whatever that presumes to mean has changed over the years but the truth is people really haven't been getting laid that much. Do you think a guy in the 1850s was knocking it out the park up until the 1960s when a movement took place that changed all that? I don't.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:43 pm 
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TicaFan, I disagree. I think the basic premise is correct - the great superiority of women as creatures of love and passion, of all types in LAm, especially deep LAm (Colombia, Peru, Brazil...), compared to their gringa and americanized latina counterparts.

Regarding relative status and economic means - sure, it always helps to have bling, but I think if the subject is civ dating, that the relatively rich gringo can impress the women with his stuff is just icing. More importantly for most of us on this board the $ opens up all the P4P opportunities in quantity and quality.

I noted before that I feel based on obseration there that the average Peruvian man of average income gets a lot more luvin' than his US equivalent, just because of how the women are there. And it includes him typically being able to date and mate with women up to 20 years younger if he is the right kind of guy for the particular girl.

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:34 pm 
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LittleKing wrote:
TicaFan, I disagree. I think the basic premise is correct - the great superiority of women as creatures of love and passion, of all types in LAm, especially deep LAm (Colombia, Peru, Brazil...), compared to their gringa and americanized latina counterparts.


I think it's fair to say there is some great passion to be had down there.

I've had some wonderful partners in the US too. I've been dismayed at how average some of the girls are in Latin destination for "making love" or providing sex- how can that be? But no doubt, especially in a place like Brazil, the girls like to Phuck and they tend to be good at it since they've had so much practice. But so what? Most of us cannot touch the girls outside of the P4P venues anyway. We sugarcoat and talk about the "non pros" that love us to death but c'mon.

On my last trip to Brazil I met a girl at a bar in Lapa and took her home first night. She absolutely is not a working girl. She's a true civilian. She took the bus home for a dollar and wouldn't let me buy her a cab. Well anyway, needless to say she didn't like me not being available after that and certainly didn't want me with other girls. I thought that was just a dirty gringa trick. The truth is, girls are girls for the most part. I believe we tend to romanticize a lot of what goes on overseas and we often leave out the realities. In Brazil for instance half the girls sneak off by day to Phuck guys for money then go home to their bfs, fiances, and husbands and play house again. The guys have no clue. I hardly think the girls down south are so virtuous. In fact, I know they're not. Now, can you find good ones, of course. They exist everywhere. You have to remember, this board represents a minority of men and what they are searching for, or missing. Take a drive through any of the hundreds of neighborhoods in your county. Believe it or not, there are quite a few happy men in those houses raising families and having nice relationships with their wives. Strange thought, huh?

To me, what this thread is really about is sexual frustration. If we just want to have a discussion about how great some of the sex to be had in LA can be, we have it. But when we start that discussion as a means to blame American girls without indicting our entire culture it is no longer really truthful. And, how can we be so much part of this culture yet not be as ruined by it as the girls, if they are. Surely we don't represent all of the good in it while the girls, the bad. I would bet a small fortune a lot of those girls in the countries we visit think a lot of us are pretty messed up too and that we show it without even realizing we do it. I know the Brazilian girls sneak off and Phuck us for money during the day then go home to their bfs, fiances, and husbands and Phuck for free. But somehow we think we're getting the best of it. If we only really knew them. But alas, we don't.

[quote=I noted before that I feel based on obseration there that the average Peruvian man of average income gets a lot more luvin' than his US equivalent, just because of how the women are there. And it includes him typically being able to date and mate with women up to 20 years younger if he is the right kind of guy for the particular girl.[/quote]

Don't know much about Peru but what could you base that on, observation? Or, are you saying something like Peruvian girls have more sex partners for casual recreational sex? The stats I have seen show American girls have about as many partners over their lives as do American men. They just don't tell anyone. And besides, if that weren't the case it would mean something closer to the average American girl has few lovers while a well below average number have many many. I would bet a lot that as men enter their 40s and beyond that even in Colombia, Brazil and anywhere else the well dries up some. All men do better when they are younger. That's just reality. It sure does seem like there's less stigma for an older man to date younger ladies down south though.

I think a strong case could be made that we city dwellers in the US are a lot more numb than maybe somewhere down South where it's not so materialistic and people stay warmer. But you know, not all of America is big city, high glamour. It probably exists in the US too but most of us just aren't part of those environments.

I'm not trying to argue, just trying to keep it real. We can call American girls clueless but the truth is they don't want to have with us what we want them to want to have with us. Therein lies the problem. See what I mean? I am defending American girls mostly because I can honestly care less about them. I have a hard time understanding why anyone so well versed in the treasures of LA/SA would give a crap about what American girls do or don't do anyway. As long as you can travel, they are obsolete.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:16 am 
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Ticafan,
Quote:
To me, what this thread is really about is sexual frustration.
I tend to agree with where you are coming from. I am happy to see someone else here trying to keep things in the real world since what we play with is a fantasy compounded with things like alcohol etc that really screws with us all. I guess when I look at my life I never was lonely & had more success than what was good for me in what ever county I was in including the USA. But you are right it is frustrating getting older & battling all the other elements for "release" here. Things have become much more complicated in the USA than abroad. I just love the KISS formula especially when it comes to simple women that by nature are very affectionate.

You are absolutely correct with your assessment of our culture affecting both sexes in the States IMHO. I found I couldn't express my feelings as well from the puritan suppression factors that had been drilled into me early on. Thank God I found LA Countries in my 20's which helped me express my bottled up inter feelings inside instead of always holding back. I am not talking about P4P Latinas but others I met along the way. Many of these I never slept with but just became friends. The Latino culture is something wonderful I believe. The true beauty of it is the natural warmth that flows from so many. Many may be economically poor but oh so full of life. I think many Gringos are somewhat jealous of Latinos free flowing natural expressions & how full of life so many are. In many ways I feel Gringos are a very emotionally suppressed people.

So many Americans have money but have so many other problems like broken families. How much fun is all that? How does one put a price on that mess? When I first discovered CR there was little divorce at all. Now that is changing at a fast rate & I wonder why? These people I think were happier without all our BS & poison. I feel I learned far more from them than I ever gave back. I became a more content happier person learning what really has more true value before we die I feel. What could I teach them with my 3 foot arm extended cold hand shake compared to their warm hug & close cheek kiss? I guess I could have showed them how to watch TV so they could see all the things they needed to be trained to want & how to create necessities that they never knew existed before :lol: .

I feel so grateful that my disciplined organized life let me experience so much at an early age. I was lucky to realize early on what marriage to a spoiled Gringa could be about (not all but way too many) as my friends were on their 3rd marriage in their 30s. I somehow how had the sense to avoid this & traveled when ever I had the chance. I saw the value to this & took extended time to do so. One trip to Cuba I met a flawless beautiful blue eyed blond that could put any Coppertone tan gringa to shame IMHO. We met in a restaurant at noon one afternoon. She saw my eye wondering her way. I finally invited them for lunch with my friend & I. He thought I was nuts as these were not lady of the night types. Long story short this 20 year old beauty wanted me to hold her all night. Well I was 31 & it seemed to workout well. The only regrets I have in this life is I am so disciplined I always wonder what if I would have taken more time to touch them deeper.

I took the time to date many that you could not sleep with & believe me they had something special about them that has long been lost here. It goes deeper Ticafan than the trash we talk around here. I feel I touched many truly beautiful inside & out Latinas but I stayed true to my business duties that called. I knew this was a win-win for me because I always found new ones to meet just as nice as the last ones. So many lives to touch & not enough time. Believe me I didn't let the best one get away :D ! But believe me it is hard to break old very ingrained habits no mater how you feel about another since it goes back to the cave man in us all.


I had no real problems in the States but it is much easier to get closer to people that are down to earth if you are an earthy person. You want to get the most out of the experience become a common man & get rid of the Rolex shackles that plague us before it is too late. Drop our culture & learn what theirs is truly about then go back & merge the best of both in your life. Worked for me but who knows I may just be one phucked up different dude :? :) ? There are far fewer walls to climb to get into Latinas hearts & minds. I don't know about you but the older I have become the fewer walls I want to climb. The one thing I found with far more frequency than I liked is when I climbed the tall walls to get close to so many Gringas there wasn't much on the other side. They may have seen the same thing with me which worked out to my favor I feel because as you point out they are obsolete now :wink: !

Nice posting TicaFan ( I like IT) :)

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Last edited by Zippy on Tue May 08, 2007 3:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:04 am 
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Zippy, thanks for sharing your experiences. I've also been deeply touched by the sweet simplicity of the civ ladies in LAm. Yes, these "good" women do want a man who is going to be faithful and committed. In their idealized scenario they don't want playboys. Maybe you can't be that man but sometimes they may accept you being who you are (with some disappointment) just because you treat them well. But you have to be careful and prepared for dramas.

There is a lovely, sincere one of 23 in Piura Peru who is just over the past week showing a renewed interest in me. She has told me she is looking for her one and only and wants to be in love, marry and have a baby. In appearance she is a solid 8+ - has a lovely face and smile (always relaxed, happy and smiling), shapely legs and butt to die for, and nice, smallish tits, natural of course (fine with me). She is shorter than me too which is good for relationship potential. When we met back in March and spent some hours together getting to know each other, she was very very warm and sweet, in an inexplicable way that americanized latinas and gringas just cannot be. But she was not comfortable getting too close - just friendly hugs and besitos on the cheek - no lip kisses. I was not 'the one' for her at the time.

We have stayed in touch since - she still pages me to chat on MSN. Somehow I have her feeling different - her 'besitos' in her emails and chats with me have changed to 'besossss', and she is asking me to come back to Peru soon just to see her. Maybe because I told her about another special girl and how much the other one likes me and I like her - maybe that did something to her. At the same time I was giving her sweet words like telling her she is a 'princesa' (and she is, but not the spoiled princess, rather the lovely and innocent type). Part of me could imagine a committed relationship with her, waking up each morning with her young and nubile, perfectly tanned shapely body, nude or in skimpy lingerie, brushing against me. But she is not a girl to play games with. If I proceed here, it will be with sincere caution.

I wonder...if one day I pulled her or someone like her out of her culture to marry and be with back here, how would she change? Maybe the real question is, how could she not change?

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viva...don't want no blue eyes
la loma...I want brown eyes...rica...I'm in a state
Pixies, No.13 Baby


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:38 pm 
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I arrived yesterday in Cali and at 10:30 pm my spinner friend Diana and her spinner cousin knocked on my door. I've known Diana, 21, almost 2 years so it was nice reunion. The cousin was cute, 20, and laughed easily. They stayed nearly 4 hours and I gave them about $120 U.S. including taxi. They're coming back Friday. If I could experience anything comparable in the U.S. for a reasonable amount, I'd do it. Even at an "unreasonable" amount, I might splurge occasionally, just because the "cute" factor, to say nothing of the gfe thing at such a heightened level, is so enticing. Long after they said they would go, they were still naked, their legs all over me, laughing about this and that. I finally got up and started straightening up the place so as to get them out and get some much needed sleep after traveling.

The simple truth is I can't find it in the States. IT DOESN'T EXIST. What gringas are "clueless" about is they actually believe they are good. In talking with many gringas, I find they want to attribute every positive aspect of why Latinas are so loving, affectionate, sexual, etc., to the poor economy, lack of opportunities, third-world women's issues, and all the other pabulum straight out of Gloria Steinem's playbook. Understandably, they don't want to admit the obvious; that they're not capable. Why is it so hard to understand? Is it racist to suggest some countries and cultures develop strengths that other's don't? Make no mistake; sex and everything that comes with it comes from within. You can teach someone how to write music, but if it doesn't come from within, it's not the same.

The issue of non's is a very individualistic topic, with some guys having more or less luck. But with regard to p4p, I'm convinced I can't find an experience like I had yesterday, for any price in the States. You can make every excuse in the world to rescue the self-aggrandizing gringa, but the fault is there's. And when foreigners migrate here, they make conscious decisions how much to adopt American ways; some do a lot and some less. Why would a Latina who came over and landed in Miami want to adopt anything from gringa's? The answer, of course, is money and the "good life." The difference in the transplanted p4p'er to the native is night and day. Which one is happier? Gringa's would say they are, but the evidence doesn't seem to support the assertion. Too many gringas, transplanted or otherwise, seem miserable in their quest. And the term "p4p'er" refers to a fairly "open" population. Greed is greed, seen in the street-walking sector, just as it is in those upper crust women who marry for money; it's a broad category.

Men's frustration with American women is justifiable. American men aren't perfect, but women can start their own thread if they want. This is about American women and how they fall short in their ability and desire to please men. They resent men. They resent men's sexuality. And they resent being dependent in any way whatsoever on men. They don't want to see men "get away" with anything and since they can live long periods of time without sex, they're willing to do just that. And when they capitulate, you'd better be appreciative, even when it's lackluster compared to what you know to be in the world. I spent the majority of my adulthood defending American women. I must have had rocks in my head. Big ones. But I was a product of my culture and bought into the manure spewed from the mouths of feminists coast to coast, that there must be something wrong with men. The pitch was we're brutal, insensitive, we don't listen, are oversexed, and opportunistic. Women's propaganda actually made me repulsed by big, pushy men taking advantage of poor, little gringas. Like I said, I had big rocks...

Now I see American women, especially the younger, foxier types for what they are; clueless. I've done my part to expose a few to the truth about the issue, that gringas score lower in the male-female "harmony" department, including their deficit sexually - sort of like turning off a light bulb to help stop global warming - but otherwise I don't really expect miracles. Women's positions in the culture are deeply entrenched at this point and there's no going back in my lifetime. As long as gringas cling to the "bargaining chip" status of their golden uteruses, growing numbers of men will be alienated and leave, only to hear an echo of, "Where are all the good men..."

...as they fly off into the sunset on Avianca....

_________________
"Don't never trust a woman, till she's dead and deep....One day she'll say she loves you, next day she'll throw you on the street."

"...and if men didn't have this unquenchable desire to have sex with women, then they wouldn't have anything to do with women at all. I certainly wouldn't..."


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:17 am 
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Jazz, there's one element in the female population I avoid, despise, and believe a case could be made to broadly annihilate and that's the "Sex in the City" type. Any time I've ever watched that show- which is not very many- I've been amazed by the role they represent. Does the former popularity of the show say women like that really exist and girls relate to it; is it a fantasy many women have of how they wish they could be; is it more or less something that doesn't exist but will eventually become the ideal much like the little house with a white picket fence hollywood created long ago? They are pretty shallow and materialistic and would be deserving of poor treatment by the men they meet. You would almost think women's rights groups would have stood up by now and said "hey, that's not the way women should be either".. but maybe that's what the goal is? I don't know. I just know that if you are meeting women like that, run.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:55 pm 
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Apparently American men aren't the only ones discontent with their local women.

Taiwan men seek mail-order brides from Vietnam

By Ralph Jennings

TAIPEI (Reuters) - In Taiwan, some men choose brides from the comfort of their living rooms by watching a TV show that airs photographs and biographical details of Vietnamese women looking for husbands.

The women are willing to marry men sometimes decades older than themselves to exchange a life of poverty at home for relative affluence abroad. These couples often don't live happily ever after. Vietnam native Nguyen Chi, 28, was kicked out by the husband she married five years ago and now scrapes by working at an electronics factory in Taipei. Ten of her 20 Vietnamese colleagues have also been dumped by their Taiwan husbands.

"We've all got the same problem. We're divorced or our husbands don't want us, and some of us are raising K*ds," said Nguyen, speaking in Mandarin learned during five years in Taiwan.

"I figured it would be a lot better than Vietnam here, but I hadn't been before. It's not that easy to make money."

The story of women such as Nguyen has prompted Taiwan and Vietnam -- whose 75,000 nationals are the island's largest non-Chinese immigrant group -- to get tougher on cross-border marriages to stop fraud and illegal residency following break-ups.

Taiwan men looking for "mail-order brides" are partial to Vietnamese women who they consider to be particularly submissive, matchmakers say. Often left on the shelf by local women, these men are looking for wives willing to have Babi*s and help their aging parents, the matchmakers add.

Men often enlist friends and business contacts in their wife search. But the popularity of Vietnamese brides is so great that there is now a prime time television show that broadcasts photographs and biographical data of prospective wives.

Those who prefer a more personal approach use the services of about 300 marriage brokers operating in Taiwan who organize wife shopping trips to Vietnam at costs that range from $900 to $10,000 for stays up to one week.

Before leaving, the men can narrow down the field by flipping through photos of available young women.

POLICE CRACKDOWN

Police are cracking down though. A new law that forbids women from marrying Taiwan men more than 10 years their senior has hurt business for brokers, a Taipei-based matchmaker said.

In early April, police in Ho Chi Minh City broke up a matchmaking ring and arrested two suspected marriage brokers. A raid on a home turned up more than 100 women seeking husbands.

But despite the risks, Vietnamese brides who come to Taiwan can enjoy lifestyles and amenities hard to find at home.

"Life in Vietnam isn't great. I wanted to come here, and I did it by fate," said Du Hsue-li. "Here there's work. I can buy what I want," added the 25-year-old.

Despite a more affluent life, some brides are ill equipped to deal with cultural and other issues, including large age gaps with their husbands and demanding in-laws. Lack of Chinese language skills can also cramp marriages.

Some husbands hold their foreign mail-order brides captive.

"The men control their ID cards, won't let them contact other Vietnamese women," said a Vietnamese woman who takes distress calls for a support group. She gets about 10 calls a day.

Vietnam's state-run e-newspaper Vnexpress.net says most brides headed to Taiwan lack formal education and usually meet their husbands less than three times before getting hitched.

"We all wish Vietnamese women could find good husbands who love them and provide them with a secure life instead of the tragic plight endured by those who were unfortunate to marry Taiwanese or Korean men only for material purposes and no real love," an article in Vnexpress.net states.

Some foreign brides brought to Taiwan under the pretext of marriage end up as forced laborers or prostitutes, according to a U.S. State Department report on human trafficking.

Taipei is trying to curb this through better screening of women moving to Taiwan and also by pushing marriage brokers to make home visits to check on the new brides.

Nguyen, stung by her husband's rejection and obstacles to earning money, hopes to return to Vietnam one day.

"It's a little bit better in Taiwan, a little bit safer," she said. "But it's difficult to live here."


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:00 pm 
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Same thing going on in S. Korea.

Marriage brokers in Vietnam cater to S. Korean bachelors

HANOI: It was midnight here in Hanoi, or already 2 a.m. back in Seoul. But after a five-hour flight on a recent Sunday, Kim Wan Su was driven straight from the airport to the Lucky Star karaoke bar, where 23 young Vietnamese women seeking Korean husbands sat waiting in two dimly lit rooms.

"Do I have to look at them and decide now?" Kim asked, as the marriage brokers gave a brief description of each of the women sitting around a U-shaped sofa.

Thus, Kim, a 39-year-old auto parts worker from a suburb of Seoul, began the mildly chaotic, two-hour process of choosing a spouse. In a day or two, if his five-day marriage tour went according to plan, he would be wed and enjoying his honeymoon at the famed Perfume Pagoda in the Huong Tich Mountain southwest of here.

More and more South Korean men are finding wives outside Korea, where a surplus of bachelors, a shortage of marriageable Korean women and their rising social status have combined to shrink the domestic market for the marriage-minded male. Bachelors in China, India and other Asian nations, where the traditional preference for sons has created a disproportionate number of men now fighting over a smaller pool of women, are also facing the same problem.

But a booming Korean marriage tourism industry is seizing on an increasingly globalized marriage market and sending comparatively affluent Korean bachelors to searching for brides in the poorer corners of China and Southeast and Central Asia. The marriage tours are fueling an the explosive growth in marriages to foreigners in Korea, a country whose ethnic homogeneity lies at the core of its self-identity.

In 2005, marriages to foreigners accounted for 14 percent of all marriages in South Korea, up from 4 percent in 2000.

After an initial setback — his first three choices found various reasons to decline his offer — Kim narrowed his field to a 22-year-old economics major in college and an 18-year-old high school graduate.

"What's your personality like?" Kim asked the college student.

"I'm an extrovert," she said.

The 18-year-old asked why he wanted to marry a Vietnamese woman.

"I have two colleagues who married Vietnamese women," he said, adding, "The women seem devoted and family-oriented."

One Korean broker said the 22-year-old, who seemed bright and assertive, would adapt well to South Korea. Another suggested flipping a coin.

"Well, since I'm quiet, I'll choose the extrovert," Kim said finally, adding quickly, "Is it O.K. if I hold her hand now?"

She came over to sit next to him, though neither dared to hold hands. She spelled out in her name in her left palm: "Vien." Her name was To Thi Vien.

In South Korea, billboards advertising marriages to foreigners dot the countryside, and flyers are scattered on the Seoul subway. Many rural governments, faced with depopulation, subsidize the marriage tours, which typically cost $10,000.

The business began in the late 1990s by matching Korean farmers or the physically disabled to mostly ethnic Koreans in China, according to brokers and the Korea Consumer Protection Board. But by 2003, the majority of customers were urban bachelors and the foreign brides came from a host of countries. The board says between 2,000 and to 3,000 agencies operate now.

The widespread availability of gender-screening technology since the 1980s has resulted in an overabundance of Korean males. What is more, Korea's growing wealth has increased women's educational and employment opportunities, even as it has led to rising divorce rates and plummeting birth rates.

"Nowadays, Korean women have higher standards," said Lee Eun Tae, the owner of Interwedding, an agency that last year matched 400 Korean bachelors with brides from Vietnam, China, the Philippines, Mongolia, Thailand, Cambodia, Uzbekistan and Indonesia. "If a man has only a high school degree, or lives with his mother, or works only at a small- or medium-sized company, or is short or older, or lives in the countryside — he'll find it very difficult to marry in Korea."

Critics say the business demeans and takes advantage of poor women. But brokers say they are merely matching the needs of Korean men and foreign women seeking better lives.

"But this business will get more difficult as those countries get richer," said Won Hyun Jae, the owner of i-Bombit, another agency. "Now, even a disabled Korean man can find a Vietnamese bride. But eventually Vietnamese women will ask why they have to go marry a Korean man when life in Vietnam is good."

For now, Vietnam remains a popular source of brides, second only to China. Marriages with Vietnamese women are considered so successful that at least one rural government, Yeongcheon, in Korea's southeast, subsidizes marriage tours only to Vietnam.

At Incheon International Airport outside Seoul, an increasingly familiar scene unfolds in front of the arrival gates in the mornings. Korean men, holding telltale bouquets and often accompanied by relatives, can be seen greeting their Vietnamese brides as they arrive on overnight flights from Hanoi or Ho Chi Minh City.

It was also at Incheon Airport that a tense-looking Kim and another client began their marriage tours. Three brokers for Interwedding and i-Bombit arrived.

Kim, urged on by an older sister, decided to go to Vietnam after a last-ditch effort to meet a Korean woman in December failed. A high school graduate, he lives with his mother and an older sister, and works on the assembly line of a small manufacturer of car keys. Though he lives in one of the world's most wired societies, Kim does not use the Internet.

The other client was Kim Tae Goo, 51, who farms ginseng and apples on the hectare, or 2.5 acres, of land he owns in Yeongju, a town in Korea's southeast. Kim had recently divorced a Chinese woman he married after the death of his first wife, a Korean woman. He lives with his 16-year-old daughter and his elderly mother; his 21-year-old has left home.

Ahn Jae Won, a Korean broker who has long been based in Hanoi and is himself married to a Vietnamese woman, began: "The women have come out looking their best for you. But don't expect them to look as pretty as Korean women. There is a big gap in our GDP's. Don't be condescending. Don't lie. If you lie, they'll find out eventually and feel betrayed and run away."

"The parents know that their daughters will marry a Korean man. The authorities know this is happening, but there'll be trouble if we do it in front of them. So I seek your understanding. Once we land in Hanoi, even though it'll be very late, we'll go meet the women right away. It's safer to do this at night."

"One last thing. Other companies allow you to sleep with the women on the first night. We don't. Only on the bridal night. We must, after all, keep our decorum as Korean men. Is that O.K. with you?"

The two nodded.

And so, at the Lucky Star karaoke bar here, the older Kim addressed the Vietnamese women, most in their early 20s.

"My 16-year-old daughter lives with me and I'm a farmer," the older Kim said, after informing the women through the brokers that he would also send $100 a month to their parents in Vietnam. "Is that O.K. with you?"

"I know how to farm," said Bui Thi Thuy, 22, one of the two women Kim eventually focused on.

Asked whether she had any questions, Thuy said she had none. But the other woman, an earnest 28-year-old in a light-green jacket, asked: "If I marry you, will you love me and take care of me forever?"

"Of course," Kim answered, then quickly settled on Thuy.

After a few hours' sleep, the new couples and the brokers squeezed into a small van for the four-hour ride to the women's home province, Quang Ninh, about four hours east of Hanoi. There, the couples would be interviewed by the local authorities before registering for their marriage.

The road out of Hanoi, a wide highway flanked by new factories owned by multinationals like Canon, eventually narrowed to two lanes criss-crossed frequently by cows. Farther out, farmers could be seen working the soil by hand, and signs of Vietnam's booming economy grew fewer.

Most of the Vietnamese women marrying Korean men came from the rural areas around Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City.

Both Vien and Thuy had friends who had married Korean men and lived, happily it seemed, in Korea. Like many Vietnamese, they were also avid fans of South Korean television shows and movies, the Korean Wave of pop culture that has swept all of Asia since the late 1990s.

The Korean Wave has transformed South Korea's image in the region, presenting the country as having successfully balanced tradition and modernity, a place that produces coveted Samsung cellphones and cherishes family ties. The week the two women met their new husbands, Vietnamese television was showing in prime time a Korean television series called "Successful Story of A Bright Girl" — the story of a simple country girl who goes to Seoul and captures the heart of a tycoon.

"To be honest, I don't know much about Korea except what I've seen on television," Vien said. "But the Korean landscape is beautiful. Korean men look sophisticated and affectionate. They seem responsible and they live in harmony with their family members and their colleagues."

A soccer fan, able to rattle off the jersey numbers of David Beckham or Zinédine Zidane, she had registered two years earlier with a local broker for marriages with Koreans. With only Vien and an older brother, her parents — her father was a construction worker for a local firm — had sent both to college.

By contrast, Thuy was one of five Ch*ldren of rice farmers. She had registered with the agency soon after graduating from high school.

"A friend of mine married a Korean man and now lives in Seoul," Thuy said. "We talk on the phone sometimes. She's very happy. She says there are so many people and tall buildings in Seoul."

At age 22, she said, half of her peers had already married. As she waited to get married, she helped with household chores, forbidden by her parents to engage in the farm work that might blemish her looks.

The couples registered for their marriages and underwent medical check- ups, running into other Vietnamese- Korean couples along the way. The younger Kim wrote a letter in Korean to his bride — trying to allay the anxieties he saw on her face, promising to protect her in Korea and surmount the inevitable problems — but found no way to relay its meaning. The couples bought Korean and Vietnamese dictionaries, pointing to words or using broken English.

On Tuesday, about 40 hours after landing here, the Korean men married their Vietnamese brides in a double ceremony. The brides' relatives waited at a large restaurant here with expectant looks.

"Today is the union not only of two people, but of two countries," said Vien's father, To Minh Seu, 55. "Vietnam and Korea share many similarities. We are both Confucian societies."

Standing next to her daughter and her new son-in-law, Thuy's mother, Nguyen Thi Nguyet, 56, said, "This is a poor country, but conditions are much better in Korea. I hope my daughter will have a better life there."

But the father, Bui Van Vui, 52, was displeased that his daughter was marrying a man just one year younger than he was. The night before, he had telephoned Ahn to complain about the age gap.

"I'm still very worried because of the age gap," the father said as his son-in- law listened to Ahn's interpretation. "I'm slightly relieved now that I see my son-in-law for the first time. But I can't stop worrying."

"Don't worry, don't worry about a thing," Kim said.

Still, the father looked grim throughout the ceremony.

"Let's tell him about the compensation," Kim told Ahn, referring to the $100 he would send every month.

"Later, later," Ahn said.

As he left the restaurant after the ceremony, the father turned around at the entrance to take a final look at his daughter. He pressed two fingers against his lips in a kiss goodbye.

Later, Thuy said: "I was my father's favorite. He really adores me and is worried."

She, too, was worried. "I know Korea only from television, but it must be very, very different from reality. I don't know whether my new family will like me and I don't know how I'll adapt. I'm overwhelmed with worries."

It came time for the Korean men to return home on Thursday night, with their wives staying behind to complete the paperwork to join them.

At the airport here, Thuy announced she had something to tell her husband and asked Ahn to interpret.

"Please extend my greetings to your mother and Ch*ldren," she said. Kim reached out for a handshake, but the brokers pressed him to give his wife a hug.

"Don't worry about me. I'll study Korean very hard and by the time you see me I'll be good at it. We had only a short time together. But I felt affection between us and started to feel love for you. When you're in Korea, please call me."

"I'll call you in two days," he said.

The two women would leave Hanoi in three months, the same way half a dozen other Vietnamese brides, visas in hand, did on a recent night. The extended families of these brides had come from the countryside to bid them farewell, some still wearing car sickness patches behind their ears for the long drive here.

Many, it seemed, were visiting the airport for the first time. Some kept riding an escalator up and down, their faces showing the thrill of a new experience. Then, with boarding-time beckoning, they clustered in front of a window looking into the immigration office, noses pressed against the glass, and waved at the brides as they were stamped out of Vietnam and went off to catch the red-eye to Korea.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:53 pm 
PHD From Del Rey University!

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Wit - That's some sad stuff.

Tica - I know what you mean. The show tries to compensate for all the frigid women in the States, or if not frigid, certainly not proactive.

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"...and if men didn't have this unquenchable desire to have sex with women, then they wouldn't have anything to do with women at all. I certainly wouldn't..."


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:42 pm 
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Jazz Musician wrote:

Tica - I know what you mean. The show tries to compensate for all the frigid women in the States, or if not frigid, certainly not proactive.


I caught a piece of an episode the other night where one of them was crying because a guy "she really liked" turned out to have a small penis. I mean, that's the kind of crap that's on tv nowadays. Remember the good ole days of Archie Bunker and The Brady Bunch? What if on a guy's show one of the characters was distraught because the girl "he thought he really liked" has small tits a loose vagina or worse, one had been surgically altered because she had breast cancer and it was a non starter for him? Oh man, the women would have a crap fit over something like that.. those shallow men. But women on a show like that are celebrated, I guess?

There's a lot wrong with our society. I'm surprised other cultures even allow our crap on their cable systems.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 4:40 pm 
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Jazz said...
Quote:
Make no mistake; sex and everything that comes with it comes from within. You can teach someone how to write music, but if it doesn't come from within, it's not the same.


I think this is where the rubber meets the road Jazz. Most of us are looking for that magical, real connection between man and woman. Those of us who are musicians can relate and compare that to the magic of connecting with other musicians. Many musicians are mechanical, learn all the scales/arpeggios, but have no creativity or "soul". Others have little formal education, but can play anything they hear once. The ultimate magic is when you know what the other musician is going to do before they do it in a creative setting. Its a mystical, mathematic connection of minds.

I have found it the same with women. Some have great mechanics, but no soul. Others have little experience, but natural passion. This is the continued mystery that drives the dance of life between the sexes...and what we many of us seem to invest most of our lives and livelihoods pursuing :? ...

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:16 pm 
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So, I wanted to get to the end of this posting before giving my two cents, took a while but I managed! First things first... My sincere compliments to Ticafan, Jazz Musician, Witling, El Ciego, and many others for making maintaining such a purposeful, meaningful dialogue! If you guys are interested in reading more on this subject, I have a book recommendation. (its long and makes for perfect reading on long flights) Its called "Screwed, the betrayal of the American Male in the 20th century" its by Susan Faludi, who is actually a feminist writer. She POURS over MANY male centered issues, including reviewing the Promise Keepers movement, reviewing the firings of men by their career companies, and an in depth look at what "masculinity" has become. I welcome you all to read it and then PM me on your thoughts.

Aside from that, I have to say as one of the younger men reading this forum, that I am completely baffled and dismayed by the prospects I see for remaining in this 'merican culture. Its just overwhelming and I don't know where to start!? I mean it would be different if I had a role model or two who could tell me this is where to go and this is what to do, but instead the loudest voices I hear in my head are the centered around the feminazi agenda, pop culture(aka sex and the city), and being so-called "tolerant". I am asked from time to time as to what I'm looking for in a woman, and I always reply "beauty, grace, class and kindness" knowing that 2 out of 4 of those answers are going to be totally LOST on most women! (Especially the GRACE part) But thats not all... I also hear "just be yourself" from one girl, and "your a nice guy but you try too hard" from another. WTF? What am I supposed to be? I was raised with the now old-fashioned values, and everything I've become is LOST on my generation! And since when has being a genuine nice guy become a character flaw?

Put simply, I am without an identity. If I chose to act masculine I am automatically misogynistic, and if I am more meek and humble then my agenda gets run over! If I stand up for myself then I am selfish and not concerned for the so called "needs of women" and if I give up on the system and go to CR for a lifestyle change aka:mongering, I am a pervert, and am sponsoring the subordination of women! Its like a crazy bi-polar, passive-aggressive, pus*y controlled culture! WTF indeed!

SO here I am trying to grow a spine at the risk of being called intolerant... Where did this all come from? What am I supposed to do now? Continue to whine and complain? I guess I'll work in the states and travel internationally, as has been suggested...until something better comes along. And in the meantime just develop a thick skin to the things I hear, and develop some more right handed calouses until my next trip! :roll:

Any thoughts for the younger guys who read this forum?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:55 pm 
PHD From Del Rey University!

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Boquest

I work with all these young hot Gringas all day long. They tell me everything about the guys they are after, who they like & why. Even though I like them & they are good employees their values at times make me want to puke! They always laugh that they like the men that are not good for them. I see them cry & drag around all day because the guy they want doesn't want them. Ask them if he would be good to marry & they say NO so I say what are you crying about???

Most Gringas seem to want Glitz & $$$$$$$$ over character & substance. They see the later as boring. You can whine but that just makes it all worse. I found it is best to lead NO MATER WHAT while focusing on your economic strength for YOURSELF! You follow YOUR path YOUR desires & stay true to YOUR character & what YOU believe in. Most women are not smart enough to see what you have to offer so IMHO they are not worth having (ok for a quick screw though :) ). The ones smart enough to see through all the BS are the only ones worth keeping around I believe.

I have seen it a thousand times where some Gringa was hot after a guy that she thought she could never catch. Once she had the guy eating out of her palm she became very bored very quickly. Most men should always keep the one he wants guessing a little. Once they think they own & totally control you look out!

Best to travel IMHO because women raised away from our distorted spoiled society can see true value much easier & clearer :wink: . YMMV

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Spunk glazed Chicas are the building blocks of the universe!


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