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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:48 am 
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Bktuna wrote:
There are many other past posts on assaults: (Calling archivists Paco)
BK I posted the same thing for KC in his poll thread https://costaricaticas.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19138 (we have 3 current threads in 3 different sections on the same topic.) KC can use the search function if he still feels the need for first-hand reports.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:19 am 
Dear Poco, the search function is nothing new. Many topics are repeated on the board, I know this can be frustrating for some of the old timers that think that the final chapter has been written on these subjects.

But now we have a new thread here, with an updated conversation and it is not up to me to go to old threads and pull out old information to bring into this discussion.

However it is helpful to have to link to the old discussion. Thanks for providing it!!!! I will look it over.

There is nothing wrong with revisiting topics from time to time and bringing in new points of view. I do get a bit tired of the "use the search function" lectures. I find it a bit rude. Just my opinion.


Last edited by Casper on Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:23 am 
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I don't know about Paco. Personally, I'm too lazy to go through the archives and compile anything this morning. Fortunately there is another recent poll thread where guys posted about some of their experiences: http://www.costaricaticas.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18250. In that thread I did my own compilation and this is what I found:

1) Most of the crimes that guys suffer is not at the hands of street thugs but at the hands of chicas. Yet no one is saying we avoid them. The more sensible compromise is to continue to go with chicas but to be cautious in doing so and I'm saying the same could be said about dealing with the street.

2) Coming in close to chica theft was non-violent property theft. This included having things stolen from hotel rooms or luggage, meaning not on the street or avoidable by taking cabs. It also included pickpocketing incidents, presumably mostly out on the street. I'd also guess that most of those pickpocketing out on the street incidents occurred not at night, when the streets are mostly empty and guys are taking cabs everywhere, but during the day when guys are more often out walking. Furthermore, as kc has pointed out, one of the worst areas for potential pickpocleting is right outside the HDR where one could get hit just walking from the door of the hotel to get into that cab.

3) Despite all the anectdotal reports of crime on this board and others that create this impression of SJ being a dangerous city, most crimes are actually non-violent in nature and occur elsewhere than on the street. In that nonscientific poll violent crime came in as a distant third to the other 2 forms of crime already discussed. Just 11 people reported being violent crime victims and for most of those guys it was over the course of many many trips or even living in CR. One of those, Ace, reported an attempted armed robbery while he was driving to Irazu (ie unrelated to walking in SJ and not preventable by taking a cab).

But what about the fraction of crime, reported in that thread, that was violent in nature and occurred on the streets of SJ?

1) The worst crime that Zig actually suffered was credit card fraud "to the tune of $8800" and not what happened to him on the street but this is what he himself had to say about his ONE mugging "My stupidity of course for wearing flashy jewelry, but after 17 trips there, became highly complacent. Probably not a good move being out alone at 2 am drunk, either!" he also reported "A grab and run of my necklace similar to Scubas loss". And that was it over the course of 17 trips.

2) What about Scubabum? Again, like Zig, his worst loss was not out on the street. His worst loss came at the hand of a chica who ripped him off for $800. He also had TVs get his necklace, which raises the question, not why he wasn't taking a cab, but why was he wearing a necklace to begin with if was going to pass through an area with TV's and also why did he let them get close enough to grab it. And again that was it over the course of how many trips?

3) RBC, also a veteran of numerous trips to CR and one who is known for exploring places most others fear to follow, could report just 1 certain incident in his entire CR career and that occurred on his very first night ever in CR, before he knew how to get around safely and after "walking out of a strip joint after to much to drink thinking ... to much alchohol can get one in to big trouble."

4) Don Gordo did not discuss the specifics of his incident in that thread, but like the others for him it was an isolated occurance after a looonnnggg career in CR. It didn't occur at night when you're suggesting everyone take cabs, but during a Sunday morning in a quiet neighborhood not usually visited by most guys on this board. I'd never suggest Don Gordo was in any way responsible for his own misfortune. He had a lot of expensive shit on him, but he wasn't out at a time one normally expects to be hit and he wasn't in an area normally known for gringo muggings. In fact, his instance is the only instance I'm familiar with of a gringo getting mugged in that area (hence his temporary lack of caution). His case seems highly unique and nonrepresentative to me. Besides if we're going to use DG's oft-cited DAYTIME incident as evidence supporting the "ALWAYS take cabs at NIGHT" position then shouldn't ALL of us be taking cabs EVERYWHERE we go during the DAY as well ("hey, its only a couple of bucks").

If you really were to go through the archives and review all the past reported incidents of violent street crime that occurred after dark (when you suggest guys should ALWAYS take a cab), I think you'll find that in nearly all the cases there were one or more contributing factors on the part of the victims:
1) walking between the HDR and the Pres after dark at a time when frequent muggings were known to occur in that PARTICULAR area
2) wearing jewelry that might attract thieves
3) being slightly or very intoxicated
4) not paying attention to what is going on around them
5) passing by or letting themselves get too close to questionable character(s)
6) walking in other more questionable areas
7) Are new to SJ or poor country cities and unfamiliar with how to carry themselves in such situations
(note that I did not include not being musclebound or it being after dark as contributing factors)

Unfortunately, these important details usually get omitted when someone later ticks off cases of gringo muggings or get forgotten altogether when guys report their general sense of the safety situation in SJ. Is the answer to ALWAYS take a cab after dark in SJ? Maybe for some. None of the guys who are saying the security problems in SJ are overstated are saying you can't or that you should never take cabs. However, for us it makes more sense to FIRST make sure you aren't making any of the mistakes listed above before you rule out walking completely. Let's face it, we all accept some level of risk in many things we do in SJ (and anywhere else for that matter). In doing so, we each make our own (hopefully well informed) assessment of risk and decide out own comfort levels, whether its to war protection at all times when having sex with a prostitute or whether to drive a car in SJ traffic. SOME of us feel the degree of risk from walking in SOME areas after dark can be reduced to acceptable levels if other sensible precautions are followed. Others disagree. It doesn't mean that one side or the other is stupid or blind, only that they measure up that risk differently or have different comfort levels. Why can't we leave it at that?

I'll conclude by reposting my own final assessment on this subject that I wrote in the VIP section:
Prolijo wrote:
I'm not saying one should never take a cab at night. Far from it. I encourage newbies or anyone unfamiliar with the security situation to play it safe and take a cab at night. If you're even slightly inebriated or otherwise impaired and thus unable to be completely alert, then always take a cab. If you're old and infirm and unable to run if you have to, take a cab. If it is raining out or you have a chica with you, take a cab (unless its to someplace like the Morazon). If you don't have any street smarts and don't know the basics about how to carry yourself in the streets, take a cab. If the distance is more than just a few blocks, take a cab. If the area you have to walk through is particularly bad, take a cab. It may not seem like that leaves very much, but a lot of areas in SJ really AREN'T that bad. So ALWAYS taking a cab at night is not 100% for ALL guys.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:55 pm 
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From my experiences, and I tend to walk around San Jose A LOT with some of those being late at night, SJ is NOT that dangerous of a city in comparrison to a lot of others back home.
I almost always walk from Del Ray to my apartment at night if I don't take anyone home, about ten minutes. There have been two times I was feeling stupid (but prepared myself) and walked around downtown real late at night just for the experience.
In my opinion, walking in downtown SJ is no more dangerous than in Dallas. Or parts of Dallas, would never walk around Oak Cliff in the dark.
It's NOT safe to walk around at night downtown just like it isn't safe to walk around a LOT of areas in a LOT of towns in the US.
Newbies, older members, drunk members or members who aren't familiar enough with SJ should ALWAYS take a taxi at night IMHO. If you are distracted by chica's, take a taxi. If you have your 'bling' on, then take a taxi.
Last night, as an experiment, walked over SJ at night from 8pm till after midnight. Went as far north as Sportsman, as far south as Bar Idem, as far east as the central market and as far west as Barrio California. I never felt unsafe. Felt nervous outside DR but that is normal :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:23 pm 
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Prostoner wrote:
If you are distracted by chica's, take a taxi.


More times than not, when I'm leaving the Del Rey, I'm usually distracted by a chica... But that's a good thing as I'll hop in the cab for the short ride to SL or the Clarion... The only exception with a chica is during the day when I'm staying at the Prez...

Prostoner wrote:
If you have your 'bling' on, then take a taxi.


Good point, but probably best to leave the bling at home... I've got a wingman who always wears his Rolex and I tell him this is plain stupid... That just invites a mugging... And why do you want the chicas to see that anyway? When you try to negotiate, they'll just look at you like your a fookin Martian...

Prostoner wrote:
Last night, as an experiment, walked over SJ at night from 8pm till after midnight. Went as far north as Sportsman, as far south as Bar Idem, as far east as the central market and as far west as Barrio California. I never felt unsafe. Felt nervous outside DR but that is normal.


That's not nervousness Pro, that's the initial stage of the natural blood drain from your head to your favorite appendage... Hell, I start to get a 'semi' when I just get within sight of the Del Rey.... :oops:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:03 pm 
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Kccostarica wrote:

However it is helpful to have to link to the old discussion. Thanks for providing it!!!! I will look it over.
WTF? That link to the "old discussion" is to the poll thread you started YESTERDAY! :roll: yeah maybe you should go look it over. You'll notice there that I politely offered to find the posts of first hand accounts for you if you wished when I had time. Sorry I wasn't feeling so generous this morning. :P
Kccostarica wrote:
But now we have a new thread here, with an updated conversation and it is not up to me to go to old threads and pull out old information to bring into this discussion.
No it's not up to you, looks like it's up to Prolijo and he's done a great job as usual in this and the vip thread but since it's based on old info you probably consider it useless. My response here was to BKtunas post regarding the same info posted in your poll thread where you ARE clearly looking for "old information" about first hand posts from crime victims, or are you looking for crime victims that only got robbed in the last week? Please let us know when you think information officially expires here so we won't be dragging any out into new discussions. This entire topic in all 3 threads is based on our past experiences and our opinions based on those past experiences so I don't really see much new or updated information in any of them other than Prolijo's compilation of the information at hand and some current opinions. Speaking of -it seems you've already made up your mind about the crime and safety situation in SJO regardless of any new or old information so enjoy the streets of beautiful SJO.
PS I find it rude being called Poco. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:59 pm 
:D young man use the search function :!: use the search function :!: use it or lose it :D :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:53 pm 
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Shut up....POCO!! :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:31 pm 
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YO, with all due respect Kcc:

Paco does a fine service in bringing up past references on this forum. Since you are rather new, unless you have changed handles, you may not have any interest in past discussions. None of which, I might add, reveal your insightful contributions to this venue.

As for the topic at hand. I have been mugged, robbed....accosted by force on three occasions. There were other instances less problematic and threatening. All transpired in the last 7 years. The 30 years prior to that while traveling CR....Zero.

Wish I could have been hit on by as many beautiful chicas as that.


Last edited by Circus on Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:15 pm 
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Just thought I would add my opinion.

For a frame of reference, I was born, raised, and still live in Chicago, and not the "pretty" neighborhoods like Lincoln Park, Streeterville, etc. I am a Southsider. Do you Chicago folks remember that poor K*D that got killed on a CTA bus a few months ago? I was 5 minutes behind that bus on my way to work. Where that happened is about 10 minutes from my house. Physically, I am the definition of "Big Scary Black Guy", about 6'4" 300lbs. The only other city I have lived in was Washington D.C., another bastion of low crime and personal safety.

Kcc, you spoke a lot about awareness and attitude. Those are two of the three A's that I tell anyone about concerning personal safety. However, the first A is AVOIDANCE. Living in a shit neighborhood has taught me several things. One of the most important is "why take unnecessary risks?".

I absolutely agree with you that if you carry yourself well and don't flash a lot of valuables around, you have less of a chance of getting mugged. HOWEVER, you have an even less chance of getting mugged if you take a taxi. In the end, for me it comes down to whether or not that increased safety (and convience) is worth the $1-$2 in taxi fare. For me, it almost always is. There is a reason why people in crap neighborhoods will drive 3 or 4 blocks to go to a fast food shop or supermarket, as opposed to walking.

As far as size and a "don't Phuck with me attitude". That tends to deter most of the non-violent types/aggressive pan-handlers. But remember size doesn't mean shit against a weapon or multiple attackers. The real problem is that with the crack epidemic in SJ, if you cross paths with a crackhead who really is hungry for another hit, He may rob you even though you are a big guy, simply because you are the only one there. I remember hearing about a guy so strung out that he robbed and ARMED security guard with a knife. If crack addiction is strong enough to make a straight man suck another man's C*ck fo $10, it is strong enough to make that same guy rob someone that he wouldn't normally Phuck with.

The facts for me are simple, I don't know enough about all the in's and outs of SJ at night to feel comfortable walking around at night. In Chicago, if I am on a major street, I know exactly where to go and what to do if I see a threat coming. There are enough 24 hour Gyro and Hamburger shops to step into and wait for the threat to pass. However, I've been through SJ at night where there was NO ONE on the streets, NO stores open. Basically, if some shit went down, I'm on my own for the next 3 or 4 blocks.

I'm sure that if I lived there I would be more comfortable with walking in certain areas, but since that knowledge only comes with experience living in THAT area. I wont take the risk until then.

One last point: Regarding comparing the violence in Chicago vs. the violence in San Jose, I have two thoughts about that. First Chicago's violence is overstated because of our murder rate. However, over 75% of the murder victims had criminal records, so a big portion of our crime is basically criminals killing other criminals.

Second, I believe that while Chicago is a fairly dangerous city, San Jose is MORE dangerous for tourists than Chicago is. The lack of police pressence and number of people who openly harass toursists is way higher in San Jose than in Chicago, IMHO. Most of the danger in Chicago is confined to areas that tourists would almost never go to.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:36 am 
One thing that has not been mentioned is that in CR you are a target because you are a gringo. In the states you are one amoung many.

Big difference.

Only a fool would walk around San Jose at night.

I don't care how big and bad you think you are , a knife or a gun more than equals the playing field.

Take a taxi at night.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:50 am 
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Just being a gringo doesn't put a big target on your back. I watch how a lot of guys are dressed and believe they could do more to blend in. Obviously, we are gringos, but some give off that look of I'm on vacation and don't know the area well. Last time I was in the Del Rey, I noticed that most guys 35 and up give off that dad on vacation look. No offense, not saying anything is wrong with the way they are dressed. Quite the contrary, most look very presentable. Hmm, how to word this. I used to see it alot when I worked conventions in Florida. It is usually a standard pair of jeans, because dads don't generally wear jeans back in their work world, a polo or izod type shirt, and the white nikes that never come out except on vacation. There are other variations of the standard vacation uniform. Be a cameleon, blend in. It's hard to say wear this or wear that but there are guys who kind of blend in regardless of age, and there are guys who stand out like they have a neon sign on them. With taxis being as cheap as they are, why not take them at night when possible? I'm lazy and do generally take them anyway. I do walk when it is not convenient. But I know where I'm going, walk with a purpose, and try not to get into areas where I could get cornered. Costa Rica is becoming a more dangerous place each year, so it pays to be cautious. Even in Jaco, it is getting more dangerous walking at night. So, be careful and have fun.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:08 am 
I can understand what you are saying and I know you have lived in CR many years. But as I am 6 ft tall 230lbs, fair skinned, kind of bald, There is no way I could ever blend in and look like a tico.

I always have a serious look on my face so people almost never mess with me. So this aspect acts as a deterrent.

Better to me safe than sorry.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:08 pm 
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Zman, I know what you are saying. And I'm not meaning that you can blend in and look like a Tico. But you can blend in and look like you are a part of the city, maybe you live there, you know what is going on. I by no means could pass for Latino. Damn, it's really hard to describe exactly, but it's just that a lot of guys look like fresh meat and others you don't really notice.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:20 pm 
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Zman wrote:
Only a fool would walk around San Jose at night.

I don't care how big and bad you think you are , a knife or a gun more than equals the playing field.

Take a taxi at night.
I could just as easily say that only a scaredy-cat would be afraid to EVER walk around San Jose at night. But what good do such statements do. Clearly we have two very different assessments of the situation and we could go back and forth on this until the end of time (repeating the same tired points) and I don't think either side will have won many converts. Which side is right? Does one side or the other have to be right? Sure it may be right for them, but does that mean the other side has to be wrong (or fools)?

What I have been arguing is that this is really an issue of assessing relative risk and reward (as accurately as possible) and finding the right balance between the two for each individual. We all have our own comfort levels, not just in this but in anything we do. There are PLENTY of people who are JUST as convinced, as many of you are about the dangers of walking in SJ after dark, about the dangers of engaging in sex with prostitutes. They'd think us all FOOLS for taking unneccessary risks. Does that make them right?

Each of you "always-take-a-cab" guys has latched on to ONE point or another made by the other side and tried to tear that apart. Case in point, ZMan's comment about size that was quoted above. I don't think ANYONE suggested that simply being big and bad EQUALED the the playing field. What I did hear was that being big and bad was one among MANY factors that could REDUCE but NOT totally eliminate one's chances of being robbed. Sure taking cabs at night will reduce that even further. But you'll still run the risk of getting mugged during the day, as Don Gordo did, having your pocket picked while walking on the much more crowded daytime streets or, most likely of all, getting scammed in some way by a BM chica. The only way to avoid all of those is to stay home entirely, but then you might also wind up slipping in your bath tub. So the issue is not one of "equaling the playing field" or eliminating all risk but that of bringing it down to acceptable levels for YOU.

The key is in deciding which protective measures increase you safety sufficiently with the least cost in terms of enjoyment and convenience. The "always-take-a-cab" guys constantly repeat that a cab costs you only $1-2 and that is very true. And the few "benefits" of walking, if any are equally marginal. There are times on a clear cool night when I walk out of a smokey bar that I would like to get some air and stretch my legs, but I'll admit that "joy" is NOTHING like the joy of taking a chica back to my room for some sexo. But we're talking minimal cost on the cab side and a minimal benefit on the walking side. Anyway, they compare the minimal cab cost to the perceived risk of sometime eventually possibly getting mugged and conclude the cost is well worth it.

But I would argue that is not the appropriate comparison. True, it costs only $1-2 EACH time you take a cab but how many times do you take a cab over the course of the years you've been going to CR? Secondly, how many times have you been mugged in all that time? Finally, if you never carry a lot of cash or expensive items on you, an action just as easily practiced as taking cabs and probably more helpful since it also helps reduce your risk inside the bars and clubs, then what would be the cost when AND IF you eventually do get mugged? Sure you might get shot or beatup if you try to resist but most of the time they just grab the cash and run leaving you with a bump or scratch or two or no real injury at all. So what do we have in the end? Probably an extra $10-$20 in cab fares EACH trip to protect you from maybe losing $10-20 sometime over the course of 10-20 trips.

Or, if you prefer to focus just on the $1-2 cab fare, what is your real exposure on just that one night? Of course, we don't know the real statistics but let's just pull some numbers out of a hat. Let's say that one might get mugged once in every 100 nightly walks. I'd guess it is much less frequently than that, but lets use that number. Based just on that then MAYBE it really is advisable for everyone to take a cab. But now let's look at those incidents. I'd guess 9 out of 10 have some other contributing (and controllable factor) other than the simple fact that the victim was out on the street - alcohol, carelessness, flashy jewelry, wrong neighborhood, etc. we've been over many of those already. This would mean if you practiced a COMBINATION of all those precautions (short of not ever going out on the street and taking cabs every where every time) you could reduce your risk to 1 in a 1000 of being mugged on any given night.

Next, lets look at the cost of being mugged. The alarmist "always-take-a-cab" guys also like to say its not worth risking your life at any cost. But has anyone yet been killed in a SJ mugging and if so were they resisting. The chances of having anything quite that severe happen in a mugging have to be orders of magnitude less than being mugged at all. Even being injured to the point of hospitalization is pretty rare. At most one gets a few bumps or bruises and that is usually if you resist or fail to give up your money. The main cost is what ever cash or property they take and as I said before that can be minimal if you dress and stock yourself accordingly. Say its even as high as $50 that you lose.

Now we can add it up. Based on these admittedly somewhat arbitrary numbers, if you go out walking at night and don't take any precautions your projected losses would be $50 times 1:100 or about 50 cents per outing - not much different than the cost of the cab. If you take precautions but still go out walking, that average projected cost drops to just a nickel per outing. Compare that to the cost of reducing the risk to near zero by always taking $1-2 cab rides and the PAYOFF for taking that gamble and walking comes out to something like 20-40:1. Most of you guys would jump all over such odds if they were in a casino.

Of course, I'll readily admit that these risk and reward estimates are totally made up and you might measure it differently. My point is that it is perfectly reasonable for intelligent and equally well informed people to assess it differently than you. And quasi-quantifiable factors aside, we all also have different levels of risk tolerance. Some people refuse to go on roller coasters or jump out of perfectly good airplanes, while others love to do it. And like I said before some people don't want the worry of possibly getting AIDS or some other STD from hookers no matter how enjoyable the sex, while other people assess the risk is reducible enough with proper precautions to the point that the enjoyment derived more than offets whatever risk remains. Who is to say who is right and who is foolish?


Last edited by Prolijo on Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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