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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 6:33 pm 
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TW,
Don't just take ID's word on it. Which countries were or were not included in CAFTA (or any other international agreements) has as much to do with local politics as it does anything else. CR itself almost didn't sign on. If they hadn't, would that have meant they weren't part of CA either? Belize never signed on to CAFTA either but is part of CARICOM, so I guess that makes them a Caribbean Island. OTOH, the Dominican Republic IS part of CAFTA but is NOT a member of CARICOM (nor, for that matter is Cuba) so I guess that means the DR must be part of Central America. Switzerland is not part of the EU, so I guess that means they're not in Europe. And Panama is not a member of USAN, so I guess that means they're not part of S. America either and thus don't really belong to any region.

Actually, almost 2 years ago, Panama signed and ratified a BILATERAL trade agreement with the US (known as TLC in Panama) which is still waiting to be ratified in the US. No, its not part of CAFTA, but its not part of any multilateral trade agreement with the US that is limited to S. American countries EITHER and that doesn't at all mean that the US considers them part of S. America rather than CA. In fact, the US State Department website includes this:
Quote:
Panama is a member of the Central American Parliament as well as the Central American Integration System (SICA). Panama joined its six Central American neighbors at the 1994 Summit of the Americas in signing the Alliance for Sustainable Development, known as the Conjunta Centroamerica-USA or CONCAUSA, to promote sustainable economic development in the region.

I'm not sure where ID gets that CR doesn't consider Panama part of Central America, but if that's the case they probably don't consider Belize to be part of CA either just because it doesn't share the historical ties of the 5 countries that were part of the Federal Republic of Central America way back in the early 1800's. For that matter, it wouldn't surprise me if some people in Colombia still consider Panama to be part of Colombia, not just S. America, since it USED to be part of that country as "recently" as 1903 (then called "New Granada"). And Colombia has similar but ongoing territorial disputes with Venezuela and Ecuador. What ever boundaries individual countries may place on their regions means little compared to what is recognized by the international community and I believe the international community considers Panama to be part of Central America NOT S. America.

I prefer to rely on geographers and cartographers in that international community for questions such as this. Consider these sources:

Worldatlas.com CA map
Maps.com CA map
Factmonster.com CA map (uses Map.com map)
Infoplease.com CA map (uses Map.com map)
Mapquest.com S. America map
Holt Reinhart Winston SA map (uses Mapquest map)
http://geography.about.com/library/maps/blrsouthamerica.htm Note which country is NOT on their list
http://www.world-atlas.us/south-america.htm Note which country is NOT on their list
http://www.sitesatlas.com/ Note which countries turn red when you mouse over each region.

And then there is the opening line from the Wikipedia article on Panama:
Quote:
Panama, officially the Republic of Panama (Spanish: República de Panamá; Spanish pronunciation: [reˈpuβlika ðe panaˈma]), is the southernmost country of both Central America and, in turn, North America.

And the location description from the CIA World Fact Book:
Quote:
Central America, bordering both the Caribbean Sea and the North Pacific Ocean, between Colombia and Costa Rica

In fact, I'm not sure who the "most people" are that ID is talking about either. I've yet to find even one verifiable source that I can cite that can definitively refute the mountain of support that I've provided above.


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 7:37 pm 
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There are 21 countries in Latin America--including Spanish, Portuguese, French, English and Dutch (these last 3 being mainly Creole variants) speaking entities. Any other divisions concern me almost as much as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. If the mutual bitch-slapping has ended, can we get that high-powered intellectual energy to work on more substantive, relevant topics? Thank you.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 8:07 pm 
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Prolijo wrote:


I prefer to rely on geographers and cartographers in that international community for questions such as this. Consider these sources:

Worldatlas.com CA map
Maps.com CA map
Factmonster.com CA map (uses Map.com map)
Infoplease.com CA map (uses Map.com map)
Mapquest.com S. America map
Holt Reinhart Winston SA map (uses Mapquest map)
http://geography.about.com/library/maps/blrsouthamerica.htm Note which country is NOT on their list
http://www.world-atlas.us/south-america.htm Note which country is NOT on their list
http://www.sitesatlas.com/ Note which countries turn red when you mouse over each region.

And then there is the opening line from the Wikipedia article on Panama:
Quote:
Panama, officially the Republic of Panama (Spanish: República de Panamá; Spanish pronunciation: [reˈpuβlika ðe panaˈma]), is the southernmost country of both Central America and, in turn, North America.

And the location description from the CIA World Fact Book:
Quote:
Central America, bordering both the Caribbean Sea and the North Pacific Ocean, between Colombia and Costa Rica

In fact, I'm not sure who the "most people" are that ID is talking about either. I've yet to find even one verifiable source that I can cite that can definitively refute the mountain of support that I've provided above.


:oops: I would appreciate it if you did not confuse me with the facts. :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 8:12 pm 
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JazzboCR wrote:
If the mutual bitch-slapping has ended, can we get that high-powered intellectual energy to work on more substantive, relevant topics? Thank you.


Sorry we offended you. I think the thread has been a discussion that was carried out without insults, harsh words or assassination of character. Some valuable information has disseminated during the discussion which stands in stark contrast to some of the threads that now seem so popular here.

Given your attitude toward this thread I was surprised to see you participated in this thread:

https://costaricaticas.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=28362

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 9:15 pm 
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The Thread was the plight of "Perpetual Tourists" and the story of 2 guys who ran afoul of CR laws and regulations. That much was interesting. Yes, there was other valuable info given but through the dim haze of 2 guys ongoing low-intensity conflict. That was enjoyed not so much.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 9:16 pm 
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JazzboCR wrote:
There are 21 countries in Latin America--including Spanish, Portuguese, French, English and Dutch (these last 3 being mainly Creole variants) speaking entities. Any other divisions concern me almost as much as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. If the mutual bitch-slapping has ended, can we get that high-powered intellectual energy to work on more substantive, relevant topics? Thank you.
I really do think that ID has a mental issue JazzboCR. He's got to keep that post count going. He says, I'm not goin to respond to that, but 10 post later its still goin on and on and on, kinda like a Tica that won't shut up.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 9:20 pm 
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Irish Drifter wrote:
LionKing wrote:
ID has post count fever!!!


Thought my post count did not bother you.

LionKing wrote:
Irish Drifter wrote:
Oh ya gotta keep that post count high.


I am only going to respond to one thing that your tirade brought up and that is post count since it seems to irk you so badly.

Yes I have the most posts of anyone on the board. No I am not the most prolific poster on the board. Obviously the longer one has been an active member the more posts one will have. I am sure you can understand that elementary point. A new poster may come on board and ask a lot of questions in the first week or ten days so he would have a high daily posting average. With me so far? Let me know if I go to fast for you to comprehend this. So to make allowances for that lets disregard anyone who has not been a member for at least 1 year. Now pay attention LK because here is where you need to do a little research.

Assuming everyone, who has been here at least 1 year, joined the same day as I did there are at least two posters who would have more total posts then myself. One would have 8379 which would be almost 500 more than I have. The other would have 8097 or about 200 more then I have.

Now if you have anything else you would like to chastise me for send me a PM. Others members of the board have no need to have to put up with your obvious dislike of me.
Tirade, Try again. You obviously missed the point as usual. In all honesty I could care less about your post count,

So why keep bringing it up?
It's not my post count I'm talking about it's yours, but again YOU have missed the point. NEXT!!! Come on you know you want to respond. The keyboard is talking to ya.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 9:24 pm 
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I agree with ID. I think we had a very civil discussion between us. We agreed on some of things and disagreed on others but never with any animosity. I, for one, appreciate his knowledge and insight on this subject (and others). Obviously, I still disagree with him on some points, but his arguments actually got me to amend or soften my position on other points. The digression may not be particularly interesting to everyone else, but I think we made clear from our very first sentences what our posts would be about and no one was forced to read them.

Just be happy that ID and I can get along so well now and have come to an appreciation for the other's point of view. We weren't always so appreciative of or civil towards each other.


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 9:54 pm 
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21 countries in Latin America....I think not. You left out FLORIDA....the Northern most Latin country......

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:03 am 
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LionKing wrote:

So why keep bringing it up?
It's not my post count I'm talking about it's yours, but again YOU have missed the point. NEXT!!!

Even you do not believe, assuming you can read and comprehend, that I made any reference to YOUR post count.

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Last edited by Irish Drifter on Tue May 05, 2009 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:12 am 
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JazzboCR wrote:
The Thread was the plight of "Perpetual Tourists" and the story of 2 guys who ran afoul of CR laws and regulations. That much was interesting. Yes, there was other valuable info given but through the dim haze of 2 guys ongoing low-intensity conflict. That was enjoyed not so much.


You mean a thread was actually hijacked on CRT. :shock: I have never heard of such a thing. :roll: Have you sent a PM to Admin reporting this transgression :?: Thanks for discovering this horrible situation and bringing it to the attention of the membership. :P :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 2:09 am 
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I have taken Threads and conversations on wildly divergent tangents for a seemingly endless time. The point is, I endeavor to bring them back to the original topic when my blather is finished.
The Northernmost Latin "country" is waaay north of Florida--try the middle or upper Texas or California, both of which were stolen or bludgeoned from Mexico, and which they seem to be getting back by non-warfare means. Some call them "Illegal Aliens"; I call them "Perpetual Tourists". See what I mean in paragraph 1?

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 1:58 pm 
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Good point, JB. Many Gringos complain that the flood of illegal aliens in the SW and elsewhere in the US is essentially usurping "our" land from its rightful Anglo owners, but from a Mexican perspective the land was essentially stolen first by Anglos FROM Mexicans.

Some Chicano nationalists and Mexican-American activists in the controversial La Raza and Aztlan movements actually call for the return of formerly Mexican-dominated lands in the SW US back to Mexico after the US annexed lands in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo to become the present-day states of California, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico; and parts of Colorado, Nevada and Utah.

Quote:
The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was ratified in 1848, ending the war between Mexico and the United States and effectively handing over control of the modern Southwest from Mexico to the United States. Under the terms of the Treaty, Mexican property holders were to retain full enjoyment and protection of their property as if they were citizens of the United States....However, as claims began to arise citing the protection of the Treaty, the United States government and judiciary continually managed to deny these claims through a combination of legislation and judicial decisions.


Basically, the US failed blatantly to adhere to the provisions of the treaty in much the same way we cheated the Native Americans in our treaties with them. There is enough to this claim that there have been several attempts in recent years to address this injustice by the US itself, including House Resolution 2538 in 1997 which sought to create a presidential commission to study the issue. But who really thinks the US can or would do anything significant at this point to right those wrongs?

If anybody is interested they can read more about this at http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/guadalu7.htm. My point was that there are many examples of such irredentism around the world (Palestine, Punjab, the Falklands, Cyprus, etc.). And bringing this back around to the original topic, like JB said, how you view certain things often depends on which side of the border you stand. One man's illegal alien is another's perpetual tourist. CR may see more gringos coming to CR as undesirable, or at least the ones making anything less than 4 times the typical tico income. While those gringos who are left out probably see themselves as people who have more than enough to support themselves and not be a drain on tico society.


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 2:23 pm 
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Gee, I sure would like to know if crossing the border will suffice as opposed to the three day out rule. Guess there is not much chance of that on a thread about having to leave the country for three days. Too bad I guess... :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 2:38 pm 
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Malf1204 wrote:
the perpetual tourist in CR should feel lucky many countries are changing the laws to prevent such actions. Ukraine for example allows tourists to stay no longer than 90 days in any 180 day period.


Well, I can understand that. Who doesn't want to live in the Ukraine? They have to be very strict to keep the place from overflowing with ex-pats.

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