www.CostaRicaTicas.com

Ciego,

Excellent post as usual. I agree that "classism" is more prevelant than "racism" but it was race that initially created the classes. And education, power, and wealth are byproducts of being from the upper class (read: white). As the original poster mentioned, the main characters in the novelas are always white while the maids and evil elements are always indigenous or black. This is not a coincedence. But I wholeheartedly agree with your point about classism vs. racism. On the streets, you will not see a lot of racism in Latin America, but the class structure is as solid as rock.

As a side note to SUPERMAN, there is no such thing as a 'Nico'. The word is 'Nica' whether the person is male or female.

Excellent thread!
Several years ago my Tica novia (at the time) and I were watching
TV one night when some rap/hip-hop performers were on. As a longtime 'rock and roller', I abhor and despise rap/hip-hop, and made a somewhat derogatory comment. She immediately accused me of being racist. After I explained that that really wasn't the case as I liked many black musicians, I asked her how she felt about Nicas (I already knew she despised them). She didn't know what to say.

_________________
"In a nation ruled by swine, all pigs are upwardly mobile, and the rest of us are phucked until we can put our acts together; not necessarily to win, but mainly to keep from losing completely"...Hunter S. Thompson (RIP)

Whitling's observation on country by country predudice is absolutely correct. Having worked infrequently in Colombia for over twenty years, I can attest to this. Colombians are true snobs. While the clasd distinctions exist based on racial genetic characteristics occur in every Latin country, Colombians view most other Central and Latin American people as inferior, particarlarly the folks from Mexico primarily as how they view the Mexicans speak of Espanol, they think Mexicans have the worst command of the Spanish language in the hemisphere. It would be like someone born raised in Boston and educated at Harvard trying to carry on a conversation with the most back-woods reclusive from West Virginia (no offense to any West Virginia members intended).

About the only other country that Colombians have some esteem for is Argentina, except for futbol. Probably the least predudice country in South America is Peru; however, they also have the most mixed blood culture of any country on the continenent.

Just some observations.

Denver

I was rather surprised at the intimations about racism that I heard ...but this came from mi Nica, so perhaps I take it with a grain of salt. And maybe , it is nothing more than strong national identities..it didn't sound to be malevolent. She said that the Costa Ricans did not like Nicaraguans, or many of the other ethnic groups in their country..which I guess is par for the course. Competition for any job , in tight times, is never favorable.

Given the American melting pot, and all the problems we still have, nothing should surprise me.

I dont feel like reading every post here because i have ADD so let me just throw my two cents in here. Forgive me if i have repeated what other have said.

When it comes to my race. Puertoricans, we are a mixture of Taino indians, Spanish and african slaves. Most of the music in the carribean is from the africans and the language as well is mixed with indian and african. But since Spaniards have always been a bit egotistical, we have gotten the ego and nobility of the spaniards.

The african connection to our races has only been recently aknowleged. Due to the spanish mentality we like to think of ourselves as still having a valid conection to the spanish monarchy of acient days. Its a colonization mentality. One group of people conquer a land and put forth a propaganda of how their race is superior and begin to brainwash the populace that being themselves is wrong. Its an uphill struggle to overcome this why just a few years ago we had a survey on the island to see what race they considered themselves the results were 60%white/spaniards 30% native indian and 10% black. Which just goes to show the shame of the african heritage we have on our island.

Now the flip side of this has been when the USA took over in the early 1900, they proceeded to put propaganda that being latino was wrong. English should be spoken not spanish, spanish customs should be eliminated, self goverment should be abolished, spanish fiction or entertaiment should also be eliminated, we should emulate the USA. Fortunatly the USA relaized that it was walking into a P.I disaster and stopped pushing their beliefs on us but the damage was done. Now we have a confused mentality on what makes a "puertorican". The color of your skin? the music you listen to? the time spent on the island? the genetics of your parents? the language you speak? ect. This has left a deep and hurtfull line between US based Puertoricans and island based ones.

It seems to me from my travels to other latin cultures that spanish based latin societies have the same anti-black mentality. Dominicans seem to be the scum of the earth in allot of these places. And each race belives itself to be the best of the best closest to spain. I hear the mentality is different in brazil since its portugese than spanish.

Just my two cents. oh FYI I preffer Latino than hispanic but thats just me.

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Let me respectfully disagree with the Moreno description.

Having a former Nica favorita who described herself as a Morena (spent several trips to CR with her), I'd say that morena describes a skin color, not a mixture of races. I think Mestizo has been described correctly, as has Mulatto, but a Morana/o is a describes skin color, and not necessarily in a bad way.

And of course the Ticos dislike, or even hate Nicos, something my friend mentioned several times. And my friend lived in CR for many years, and has a CR cedula, in fact doesn't have a Nica accent anymore, but still I've seen it with my own eyes what happens when she said she was a Nica.

EMK

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Then again, what the hell do I know, I'm a newbie for life. EmailKid

This kind of snobbery / fear, where people discriminate against others sharing their race but from other ethnic heritages, has been prevalent in the States too. At the root of this "cultural-universal" is competition for scarce resources: jobs, money, etc.

For example, to my understanding, Boston was settled by english immigrants. Later, hard times in Ireland brought many of these poor people to the Boston and other big, US cities. They would work for lower wages than the well-settled residents. I understand it was common to see signs in shop windows that read "no dogs or Irish."

Ringo

Interesting stuff,
my first notice of the Tico dislike for the Nicas was on a tour during one of my 1st trips. I made a comment on all the bars, fences around all the homes even way outside the city, and it was explained that many Nicas migrate to CR looking for work and if they can't find work they steal. And that the Tico's use them for cheap labor when it's time to pick fruit or coffee beans and that's about all they seem to consider them good for.

Another interesting thing I've seen- my 1st espanol teacher spoke of how many countries take great pride in the spanish language and proper use of it, especially in South America. Perhaps Argentina being the most likely to look at you like your trash if your spanish isn't perfect. One night at dinner talking to Jaggedge's Colombiana with HandSolo, she made this point clear as she corrected every word we said. She commented on how further north you go, the worse the spanish is, Panama- ok, CR- butchers it up pretty good, Nicarauga- shouldn't be allowed to use the language,(she really bashed the Nicas) Mexico- HA! forget it, they can't even speak spanish...and on she went. Anyone else seen this type of pride/prejudice over the proper use of the language?

_________________

Living well is the best revenge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwUtj_YnNoY

Paco,

Read my earlier post on this thread, particularly regarding the Colombians view of Mexico by buthchering Espanol. Actually, the Colombians pride themselves on speaking the most perfect Costillian Spanish in the world, and even "trash" native Spaniards on their pronunciation of Espanol, they think that the Spaniards are extremely lazy with their pronunication and use of slang.

Denver

Dictionary definition from Merriamwebster.com
One entry found for ethnocentric.

Main Entry: eth·no·cen·tric
Pronunciation: "eth-nO-'sen-trik
Function: adjective

: characterized by or based on the attitude that one's own group is superior

You know how funny the Gilligan’s Island characters Thurston and Lovey Howell sound to the rest of us who speak English in the US? That’s the New England, “blue-blood” accent. Charles Emerson Winchester, the MASH surgeon who replaced Frank Burns, spoke like that too, as does real-life William F. Buckley (whom unfortunately, is not a fictional character).

I wonder if Mexicans regard Colombians’ speech the way the rest of the US regards Lovey Howell’s speech--stilted and funny-sounding.

Ringo

reminds me of a joke:

Q when does a mexican become a spaniard?

A when he marries your daughter.


here's a personal tale of latino prejudice: my grandfather was a puerto rican moreno. however, to this day, when asked our ethnicity, my grandmother, and my mother will both say "spanish" instead of puerto rican. my only guess is that this dates back to the days when the puerto rican people in our community (aka "bodinkies") were looked upon as lower class, dirty folks. I think it also has to do with the fact that although my grandfather was dark, most of us came out with light skin--my brother, who looks like Tito Nieves, is the exception. me? I say I am, among other things, puerto rican. who cares anymore?

I've read from some sources that CR did have a large indigenous population in precolonial times (near 1 million), but the scourge of smallpox and other diseases wiped most of them out before Europeans got here to colonize. It was like what happened when De Soto arrived in NA. A fews years later the population along the Mississippi was a tiny fraction. Maybe somebody was sick on Columbus's ship.

Another feature that is different about CR from the rest of CA is that it has always had more of a middle class, in part because it was so far from the capital in Guatamala. Many of the original European settlers, according to some sources, were Jews, who were trying to get away from persecution by the Spanish. In early colonial times, both the indigenous and colonial populations were poor and the CR population became predominantly mestizo. CR did not really have the huge haciendas with a large indigenous labor force, they way they did to the north.

As always, anything you read, particularly about history, will have some sort of axe to grind, but a good book to consider is "A Short History of Central America." I can't find my copy at the moment and Amazon only mentions the Spanish language version. I got it at 7th Street Books almost 10 years ago, so it may be out of print.

"About the only other country that Colombians have some esteem for is Argentina, except for futbol. Probably the least predudice country in South America is Peru; however, they also have the most mixed blood culture of any country on the continenent. "

Having lived in Peru, I would have to disagree. I have found that Peru is the most rasist country in South America. As with many Latin societies, the more Castillian blood you have the further up the food chain you are.

In Peru, if you are from the mountains or the jungle, you are denied access to top restaurants, disco's, clubs, jobs, etc. When I lived there the most expensive restaurant in the country was named "Villanova". It was owned by a "Chollo" guy. While he was a millionaire, he could not enter most fancy restaurants, nightclubs, and the like. The word "Chollo", I suspect is perhaps like using the "N" word in the south in the 50's. While it seems acceptable to use in Peru, I am not sure. If it is offensive to anyone, I apologize.

Inroads have of course been made with having the last two Presidents an Asian and a Chollo.

I've made about 15 trips to CR now. About 35 to Latin America. I was really taken aback on my very first trip to CR by so many comments by locals that were not very flattering about people from Nicaragua. I've only been to Nicaragua once, but didn't hear any comments while there about Ticos. Its just a part of CR culture. They simply don't seem to like the Nicas very much.

I remember my first trip to the Dominican Republic in 1984. Those guys really love to get down on the Haitians.

Seems native New Yorkers like to put down Puerto Ricans. The Puerto Ricans will make jokes about Dominicans. The Dominicans will make fun of the Haitians.

I feel sorry for the Haitians. They don't seem to have anyone else to hate.

Lest I sound judgemental, I've heard the same stuff from gringos about latin americans and black people.

Hope we will all be ambassadors to diplomatically help change such mindsets... or at least not promote it.

Makes me think of an old song...


Ya didnt know I could get a little sentimental, huh?

My perfect world view is NO BORDERS, No Governments, Every one living by the golden rule, my rights ending where your rights begin, no religious or political oppression...and pure freedom and individual expression in the pursuit of happiness. I guess its a little much to ask in these times...

Just call me a Ch*ld of the 60s and 70s..