www.CostaRicaTicas.com

No Deaf ears hear Bravo I loved it and learned some things I didn't know, I hope you don't mid if I use it on another board belong to.

Thanks

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LOL I would Love to never hear the word game used again ever again! :)

Recognizing our nation's shortcomings is all well and good, PROVIDED its intent is to determine how we could do better in the FUTURE, HOWEVER IMHO the Fourth of July is not the time to harp on every little mistake that we've made in the PAST or even what we continue to do wrong but to CELEBRATE those things that have made our country great today, PARTICULARLY the events of July 4th 1776.

The US Declaration of Independence followed by the US Constitution written several years later (1787) rank right up there with the Code of Hammurabi (2000BC) and the British Magna Carta (1215) as the very few greatest documents ever written in terms of their impact on mankind's self-governance and represented major steps forward in human civilization.

I have to disagree strenuously with Mr.Black. History is indeed written by the victors and the rebels that we see today as patriots I'm sure the loyalists saw back then as despicable rabble, HOWEVER to somehow equate or even compare those who took up arms against the REDCOATS and commited other acts of civil disobedience against other symbols of MONARCHIC authority (such as the (OMG) destruction of the Royal Crown backed East India Trading Company's heavily taxed TEA in Boston) with the TRUE terrorists of today whose sole goal is to spread terror through indiscriminate acts of violence and murder against innocent CIVILIANS (including many of their fellow Muslims) shows a gross ignorance of the important differences between resistance and terror.

Then there is Del Rey Dave who goes on about the impending collapse of our economic system, which even if it were true I fail to see its real relevance to the topic of the July 4th, the Declaration of Independence and the brave act of those who signed it, and then, after a cheery description of the impending hell that he says we're all heading towards, concludes have a "Happy Fourth of July" . My God! After what he just wrote I feel more like blowing myself up with fireworks rather than simply firing them off in the air to admire their beauty.

And JB, did you even read Circus's article? First of all, it goes into great detail how most of them did indeed suffer a "death of a thousand cuts", not just a quick death at the end of a rope. Secondly, whether those who followed them made lesser or greater sacrifices is completely beside the point. ALL of those who took up the side of fighting for liberty against what at the time was the most powerful empire on earth chose the difficult path of personal sacrifice. Arguably the few INDIVIDUALS who chose to take the FIRST steps, by openly declaring their independence and putting their lives and property at risk by signing their names to it, showed even greater bravery than the much larger MASSES who then decided to follow and join them. But whether leader or follower, their choice was not between a quick death at the end of a rope or a slow death on the battlefield but between continuing to live under tyranny or to risk death as free men. But it also should be pointed out that the simple foot soldiers who died fighting the British, did not have as much to lose by taking up arms, their lives were already difficult under British rule. OTOH, for the wealthy men who signed the Declaration of Independence, their choice was being able to live quite well under British rule or sacrificing everything they had, including their properties, their families and their very lives. So I ask you, if you had THAT choice - a very comfortable existence or the loss of everything you owned and loved including life itself, which would YOU choose? How certain are you that you wouldn't have chosen the MUCH easier path?

Circus, as you know, you and I are on opposite ends of the political spectrum (me being the pinko liberal that I am), but I have always respected your contributions to this board and the personal sacrifices that you and other vets have made for this country. And I certainly respect the sacrifices that our Founding Fathers made so that we can all enjoy the liberty we have today (as imperfect as it might be). I found the article you shared with us today extremely inspiring and plan on sharing it with others. Thank you for posting again.

I certainly do not want anyone blowing themselves up with fireworks Prolijo. My main point was that the same reasons we revolted against the British with the Declaration of Independence was because because of taxation without representation. In essence what is happening now with the elected officials that we have in office. We the people are the government not the elected, we the tax payers are the ones they are suppose to listen to. In the 1960's there were around 38 special interest groups lobbying Washington, now over 39,000. So, it becomes very evident where our politicians interests are. Big corporations, not the people. The Supreme court recently let corporations have the same rights as individuals to endorse and financially support candidates that they want elected for there benefit. It's not that hard to see the same game going on here only in a different fashion that was the whole reason we declared independence and to this day we celebrate such a cherished holiday.We were fed up then and ought to be now is my point. That, to me, is what being a Patriot is all about. Also the freedom we can express our thoughts and feelings freely without being persecuted for it. I had a great time today celebrating the 4th of July and hope that everyone else did. I enjoyed what Circus, Prolijo and everyone else had to say. I also am glad to be part of this brotherhood and even though we don't always agree on things, we have the right to do so.

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Go Dolphins!!!

lmao, since when did war become civil disobedience. the labels we put on our enemies are just to make ourselves feel better patriots/rebels, contras/freedom fighters, infidels/capitalist liberators/oppressors all depends allied /axis all depends on which trigger you are pulling but make no mistake both sides are all killers. todays terrorist is tomorrow hero provided they win the war

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But mama, that's where the fun is

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Mr.Black,

Laugh all you want, but you misread what I just wrote. I NEVER meant to say war was civil disobedience. When I mentioned civil disobedience I was referring to the Boston Tea Party and other similar actions. You also failed to notice where I also referred to ARMED resistance to the REDCOATS immediately before that. Armed resistance IS war, but just because many of the combatants on the colonial side were relatively disorganized militia (or rabble as they were probably referred to by the opposing side at the time) STILL does NOT make them terrorists. Attacking soldiers and other symbols of Monarchic authority is NOT the same thing as terrorists who INDISCRIMINATELY murder and maim INNOCENT civilians, many if not most of whom have nothing at all to do with their grievances.
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Del Rey Dave

And MY main point was that July 4th for me is a day to set off fireworks for FUN and to celebrate all the things that make this country GREAT and not to essentially fire off those missles at our government. You have 364 other days of the year to do that if you want and, even if you insist or truly believe this is the appropriate time to voice your beliefs, you have other places to malign our system of government other than in a thread intended to celebrate our Democracy.

Besides, I think the analogy you're trying to draw falls far short. If our democracy is imperfect it is because of our own doing. Our government is one that WE elected, and not just some monarchy 3000 miles away across a wide ocean. The colonialists had absolutely no say in who sat on the throne or what edicts that leader would impose. If we don't like what our government is doing we each have the option of voting our leaders out of office (or even running for office ourselves), instead of re-electing them again and again. And again the colonialists had no such option. Their ONLY option was to take up arms. The current electorate of the US may be just a bunch of sheeple who foolishly succumb to special interest financed media campaigns and disinformation (e.g. the recent insurance industry campaigns against health reform), but whose fault is that really?

The colonialists revolted because of a 25% tax on tea, among many other things, and the fact that they only place they were allowed to get that tea was from England (nobody is forcing us to buy cheap outsourced goods made in China from WalMart). And they were heavily taxed without receiving ANY benefit back for it (it all just went into the royal coffers to support their empire building elsewhere in the world) and without having any representation (or say) in the imposition of those taxes.

In my county, just a few short years ago, voters had to approve a 1/2% increase in the local sales tax to pay for a new sports stadium (and supposedly also new classrooms) and the sheeple imposed that tax on themselves because the monied interests convinced them it was necessary and for their own good. Nationwide it is really no different. We may not have voted for all of the taxes directly, but we elected and re-elected the politicians that did. Most people bemoan our huge budget deficits, but at the same time don't want to cut their SS that makes up 21% of that budget or medicare and other fixed entitlements that make up another 33%. Most support a bloated military-industrial complex which also makes up a huge share of federal budget (20%) and, incidently, twice as high a share of our total GDP as any other country on earth. And much of that is necessary to support wars that they were all hugely in favor of when they were started. They fret and moan about relatively tiny areas of the budget like foreign aid which represents less than 1% of the government budget (or less than half of what the average American spends just on soda) or the space program that represents barely 1/2% but has an estimated ROI of over 33%. The fret and moan about a health reform package that would cost the federal government a scary sounding one trillion dollars over TEN years (or ~$100B/yr) even though we're spending more than twice that amount on Iraq and Afghanistan with FAR less to show for it, and even though it will cover millions of Americans who are currently uninsured and will reduce (or at least slow the increase) in costs that the rest of us are already paying privately for insurance (whether directly or through our employers). They fret and moan about a huge stimulus package (made necessary by the horrible economic policy of the previous administration) but no one can really say how much WORSE the current economic situation WOULD have been if we hadn't done what we've done (a year and a half ago, many people were seriously talking about another Great Depression or even worldwide financial collapse).

IMHO, these current Teabaggers, who are bitching because, after 8 years of their failed policies, their preferred candidate (Sarah Palin) lost and because of problems with our government which really took off under their previous leader (G Dubya), are a complete joke. Look at some of those policies and practices and what they have wrought: deregulation of Big Banks that led to near economic ruin, failure to regulate Big Oil that led to the worst environmental disaster in history, tax cuts for the wealthiest 1% that has led to largest divide between the rich and poor since the age of the Robber Barons, surrendering the liberties they claim to cherish in the name of the "Global War on Terror" and demonization of anyone who did not support their policies leading to the huge schism in the current body politic that makes doing anything about any of these problems virtually impossible. These Teabaggers then wrap themselves up in the flag, as if they're somehow more patriotic than anyone who doesn't speak and act like them and envision themselves as some sort of noble and patriotic revolutionaries. What? You Teabaggers out there don't like what I have to say? Well, I'm just exercising my free speech too.

Give me a friggin' break ... or at least give me a friggin' break while I'm just trying to enjoy my hot dogs and mom's apple pie on July Fourth and go take your "Tea Party" somewhere else. I'm sure some or even many of you may disagree with my views above and haven't come here to hear it. Well I didn't come to CRT to hear your political views either. Yes, there is such a thing as freedom of speech, which I cherish as much as any of you, but there are ALREADY more than enough OTHER places where we can vent that sort of thing. How about the freedom not to have to listen? Can't we at least leave politics out of this thread if not out of CRT altogether? I SERIOUSLY doubt that Circus started this thread to hear my, yours or anyone else's political views. I'm sure he simply wanted to post a POSITIVE and what I'm sure he thought was a relatively innocuous history lesson. Instead he has gotten exactly the type of response that led him to stop posting a couple of years ago. For that I personally apologize to Circus and, for my part, I'll refuse to take part in any further political debate in this thread (and, if you had any respect for Circus, I think the rest of you would too).

Ah yes, I like the fact that one of the freedoms our Founding Fathers gave is is being practiced here today; The right to disagree!!!

I will drink to that!!!

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“Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” And we are the guys that keep them in Eggs & Grits

Pro, the insurance companies are for the health care bill, the insurance companies stock prices hit ten year highs after the bill passed. If you know ANYTHING about health care you would know that this bill really does nothing to improve health care and the insurance companies are going to come out on top which means that the US taxpayer is going to lose big time to the insurance companies because now they will overcharge a bloated inept government (read stupid oblivious third party payer) instead of the businesses, most midrange businesses will hire contract employees and part time temps or pay 2g fine to circumvent the bill, thereby slowing the hiring process and hurting the economy, ah but who cares according to Obama who has never worked a day in his life or ran a business hes going to take care of it blehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Thanks Prolijo for the support. Correctly so, I was not being political....just bringing up a little discussed subject for 4th of July weekend and using an article that described hardships on the Declaration signers. I have no proof that the article is entirely correct, probably not since there are always cloudy issues on what happened that long ago. Hell, there are a number of disagreements about subjects of the Lincoln assassination...even President Kennedy's death. But the lives of just about all of these men and families dramatically changed during and after the war.

Perhaps the most horrific were the wounds and deaths of the basic soldiers along with the horrible cold and their insufficient clothing and shoes. It's been said after a march, many stone roads were stained with the blood from the soldier's bare, cloth wrapped or moccasin covered feet.

Anyway, everybody quit bitching. All of your asses are probably quite comfortable, your bellies full and sipping the drink of your choice. We are so fortunate....aren't we.

I have no intention of getting involved in either this thread or the politics of it but I think I would have appreciated Prolijo comment about respecting Circus by abstaining from political comment a lot more if he had made it instead of posting his over 1000 word poltical comment first.

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Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

ID, since others brought up the politics, I responded to it. As for my apology, the only appreciation I was looking for was from Circus. Since he seems to have accepted it perfectly well and it wasn't even directed at you, I really couldn't care any less what you think of it or not.

Is this brief and to the point enough for you (<100 words)? ... Wait, don't bother answering. I couldn't care any less about that either.

Prolijo, I agree with you on 95% of what your post from earlier today stated. I'm not a Tea party guy though, Independent. Circus, my apologies, I hope we hear from you a lot more often. I'm sure that I can speak for many of by saying we find your posts, interesting, fun and entertaining. Now where's that left over Apple pie? Can't we all just get along?!

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Go Dolphins!!!

CRSurf, I DO know something about healthcare but I said I was not going to debate any more politics in this thread and I think others should follow suit. If you want to continue this I recommend you start another thread or take it back channel.

Merry Chistmas and to all a good night. Thats another bebate
Circus started this a history lesson
much like NYG did about the man on the bill in your pocket
Brother Circus " I have never met him" did not make a rare post to stir the CRT pot
When the thread goes into the curent state that the USA is in now ..... shame
Everyone of you has a means to look at this post
Things suck , but to just pass the blame, buck up like our Founders did, It ain't gonna be a cake walk
Peace Brothers..... think Geengo will understand this
Now back to drinking Vodka
Pura Vida

I don't know how accurate your article was either but I'd tend to believe it for the most part. Here is something I found related to your latest reference:
Here is another historical article about what happened to the Revolutionary War veterans AFTER the war had ended, that I think you as a vet would appreciate. It seems we were no better and in most ways much worse in how well we took care of those who made the greatest sacrifices to defend our liberty than we are today. Though, perhaps this would be a better subject for Nov. 11th rather than July 4th. (I'll just provide the link)
http://www.nps.gov/revwar/unfinished_revolution/veteran_entitlements.htm

If this Thread shows anything, it argues strongly in favor of a Political Forum. Good intentions or not, this became real political and should have been cordoned off.

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"A man accustomed to hear only the echo of his own sentiments, soon bars all the common avenues of delight, and has no part in the general gratification of mankind"--Dr. Johnson
"Amen, brother"-ED