www.CostaRicaTicas.com

I did not realize that my comment was political commentary. I thought I was being satirical about common sense and logic. I am aware that from time to time; my friend VB has been known to leave certain casino's with a bit of the house's money. I do not think that rises to the level of a crime and I am sure that his friend is no more of a burden to the Tico's society. My point was, that if people are being robbed and murdered left and right, day after day, well then maybe you should use your immigration laws to root those perpetrators out of your country.

_________________
My life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming...." MAN....WHAT A RIDE!!!!"

Pro,
I am not going to cut and quote pieces from your post rather just respond to some of your points.

The fact that some future SS recipients may not have sufficient pensions to meet the requirement for residency as promulgated by the the CR government while regrettable is hardly tragic. Each government has the right to establish the conditions they feel are reasonable to protect their interests.

As you point out the income requirement for pensionado status in Panama is exactly the same figure that CR is going to require in the new immigration law. It is also the minimum amount that many countries require. While there are some Central American countries that require a lessor amount they have other issues that make them less desirable. So in effect like most everything in life there is what you want and what you can afford.

_________________
Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

With all due respect that makes absolutely no sense.

Your comment "worlds' biggest panhandler and his "play house" government." while may try to be explained away as satirical that does not mean ii was not political. Satire and political are not mutually exclusive. In fact much political comment is rendered as satire.

This statement "I am aware that from time to time; my friend VB has been known to leave certain casino's with a bit of the house's money. I do not think that rises to the level of a crime and I am sure that his friend is no more of a burden to the Tico's society. " completely misses the point of the thread. Winning a few dollars at a casino is not a crime in Costa Rica any more then it is a crime at a casino in the rest of the world. His friends problem was not being a burden on Tico society it was violating the law by overstaying the 90 days he was entitled to stay in the country.

_________________
Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

I'll cut and paste:I misused the word draconian earlier, but show me where I ever said or even suggested the fact that some future SS recipients may not have sufficient pensions to meet the requirement for residency as promulgated by the the CR government was "tragic". IF their requirements prevent foreigners who don't have sufficient income to afford to live in CR from taking up residency, then they're really doing their job and that's just tough luck for those poor foreigners, but not even regrettable. CR doesn't owe them anything. What I was questioning was whether those requirements were really reasonable or called for monthly amounts that were well over what was sufficient to live in CR. And I concluded that in the case of Pensionados the monthly amount IS reasonable. Where I disagreed with the CR authorities was their policy regarding younger gringos who may not have a guaranteed income for the entire rest of their life but do have that amount for at least the next 5 years (after which time their qualifications for residency could be re-evaluated).

Of course, each country has the right to establish the conditions they feel are reasonable to protect their interests. But, again, show me where I ever said or suggested otherwise. They have the right to make the income requirements a million dollars per month if they THINK that is reasonable. What I was questioning whether some parts of their policy really ARE reasonable or in their best interests.

Which is exactly why I concluded there was nothing unreasonable with that pensionado program. Again show me where I ever said that ALL of CR's residency policies were unreasonable rather than certain parts of it.

As I pointed out, Panama requires a much lessor amount for its temporary residency ($750/mo vs. CR's $2500/mo). What other issues do they have that make them THAT much less desirable? Higher crime? A less stable government? Inadequate healthcare or other infrastructure? One could argue that they are as good or better than CR in each of those areas. And there are many FORMER CR gringo expats who have moved to Panama because of that. They're certainly not worse than CR by a factor of less than a third.

But even ignoring what other countries are doing, you still haven't explained to me the "internal logic". If the rationale for changing CR's residency policies was so that, as you said, they would "reflects more closely the realities of the cost of living in Costa Rica" and would be "adequate amounts for someone to live in CR without putting some strain on the resources of the country" and $1000/mo was considered adequate for pensionados for the rest of their lives (regardless of long-run inflation), why wouldn't the same amount (or perhaps even less) be adequate for rentistas who only want to be guaranteed residency for the next 5 years?

I'm sure there are a lot of other factors going into what is in many ways a marketing decision. Maybe they don't care if this causes much fewer gringos to move to CR. Maybe they figure that they already have too many gringos there now and that they're causing too many negative changes to the character of the country (and I think, in that, maybe they'd be right). Maybe they figure the CR economy is doing well enough on its own and they don't really need the income that those $1000-2500/mo younger gringos could bring. Maybe they're figuring that gringos are rich and most of them can still make more than $36K per year without being allowed to work. Maybe they're right and only a few poorer gringos will be kept out because of this. Maybe they figure that CR is soooo much more desirable right now than other countries like Panama because of its lower crime and RE costs that would-be immigrants will want to pony up a 333% premium to be allowed to live there on a temporary basis. Maybe they figure these impoverished younger gringos who make less than $36K per year but more than the $12K you say is needed to afford to live in CR (and more than the $600/mo most ticos make), are the source of all of CR's crime and/or the real source of the drain on CR's resources (instead of the many illegal immigrants from other countries like Nicaragua who have incomes far less $1000/mo.). BTW, wouldn't the older gringos on SS who are being allowed in permanently for just $1000 be the ones most likely to place the greatest strain on CR's health resources rather than younger gringos who only want to be allowed in for 5 years?

OTOH, maybe the gringos in the US who have incomes of over $36K over and above the salaries they'll probably have to give up when they more to CR, don't really NEED to move to CR, whereas those making only $12-36K have even MORE reason to move there because, unlike their home country, it is a place where they still have MORE THAN ENOUGH to live comfortably or even retire early (5-10 years before their SS kicks in) while they're still relatively young, healthy and active.

You seem to have a penchant for feeling that every word in a post has to do with something you have written on the subject. Do not know about others my replies tend to answer questions and comments made by not only the poster who I quote in my post but others.



Notice I said some other Central American countries. Why do you feel that comment was directed to Panama? Just as an aside Panama is not considered a Central American country by most.



It is also a good idea to remember that these requirement $1000/2500. per month are the amount of dollars you must convert to colones every month. There is nothing illegal about converting your dollar requirement to colones, obtaining the necessary receipt for immigration and then converting all or a portion back to dollars. There is no requirement that you must spend those amounts each month.

_________________
Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

ID,
I'm sorry. I can't speak towards what you normally do in your other posts but I thought because you opened that particular post with "Pro, ..." and said in your opening sentence that you were going to "respond to some of your points" that the comments that followed WERE addressed to me. My bad. So show me where ANYONE ELSE said that CR didn't have the RIGHT to pass whatever laws it wants or that ALL aspects of CR's immigration laws were unreasonable.

For that matter, show me where I said that there WEREN'T some other countries that were less desirable than CR or where I said that particular comment was directed at Panama. My point was that there was also at least one - Panama, which IS considered a Central American country by most people - that was just as desirable as CR or more so for many gringos. Besides that, in your comment immediately prior to that one, you specifically mentioned Panama which, whatever region YOU consider it a part of, IS an IMMEDIATE neighbor of CR with a similar level of development and therefore is probably the most appropriate choice of country to use for comparison.

As for the "loophole" you mentioned, whether you need to convert your portfolio to colones or not and whether you need to actually spend all of it or not is really besides the point. You still have to come up with the cash and demonstrate it to be a guaranteed stream of income not just for the next 5 years but for the rest of your life or you have to have 2.5 times even more than that and prove it can be sustained for 5 years. This means having to come up with up to $200K or more in LIQUID assets that you can convert into a fixed income annuity or even into colones. Or are we supposed to sell our properties in the US or liquidate our stocks and pay all our capital gains taxes all so that we can transfer our funds into a Tico bank account for a couple days? Obviously, CR has the right to demand that of us if they so choose, but that doesn't mean that barrier to entry won't dissuade a lot of would-be expats from moving to CR, even though they actually have enough funds tied up in their IRA's and other investments to afford to live in CR.
----------------------

BTW, ID, I agree with you that, while unfortunate, VB's friend clearly broke the law by overstaying his visa and, while he may not have realized the full potential consequences, he knew or should have known he was breaking the law. As such its just too bad for him.

I also agree with you that GM's comments were political, whether meant satirically or not, and can understand why you'd rather not go down that road. You're entitled to that decision but I don't think that makes it inappropriate for this forum. US politics would be another matter as they can be very inflammatory and are usually way off topic from the focus of this forum, however CR politics are another story and entirely appropriate for a forum on CR, whether you want to participate in that discussion or not.

I'm clearly not the expert on the matter that you are, but I also seem to recall reading in one of the newspaper articles on this subject that part of the rationale offered by the government and/or legislators pushing these changes was NOT so much that Gringos a burden on CR's social infrastructure. In fact, I could cite examples where communities with wealthy gringos were actually doing privately what the government was failing to do by chipping in to fix area roads, hiring private security, even donating funds and resources to area schools (as "CRT Helps" was attempting to do), etc.

The rationale that I actually recall seeing was that this was a response to rising crime, just as GM said. I suppose the reasoning was that higher income gringos commit fewer crimes than those "just" making $1000/mo. Or maybe they figured the best way to combat rising crime rates was to reduce the pool of potential VICTIMS, rather than taking the more difficult steps of going after the actual PERPETRATORS. There IS a problem of crime committed in CR by foreign immigrants, but those immigrants are NOT the gringos earning more than $1000/mo or even those with legal incomes over $600/mo. In virtually all cases, where foreigners are committing these violent crimes it is much lower income foreigners coming from poorer countries and often they were in CR illegally under CR's existing laws. Moreover, as much as ticos want to blame ALL of their problems on foreign influences, a lot (or perhaps even most) of the crime in CR is homegrown committed by ticos themselves (albeit often as a result of foreign influences such as the influx of drugs en route from Colombia to the US). The important point is that the latest adjustment to CR's immigration policies really does nothing at all to address these much more important issues.

Gringo Malo don't worry about posting a political statement, It's your right to respond as you see fit without going over the line which you did not. ID has post count fever!!! If he doesn't like your answer he'll respond till he thinks he has won. Now back to the subject at hand. Immigration in CR is a joke, One time my stamp blurred at the airport as the attentant pressed to hard and moved at the same time. the lady woundn't restamp it. Just as I feared 2 days later while walking to the Presidenti I was stopped by 2 very young cops who wanted to see my passport which I do not carry but showed them a copy. The copy also showed the blurred stamp impression but these guys where fairly cool about it to my amazement. I was only held for 5 minutes and then let go.

_________________
"You can only keep a secret between two people if the other one is dead." Ben Franklin

That is a good example of CR's sometimes misplaced immigration efforts. The joke is where they expend their efforts as much as where they don't.

I understand the immigration raids on places like the HDR and various MP's. Those raids DO net illegal aliens from places like Nicaragua and Colombia. And those foreign women who are questioned are working illegally in CR (in direct competition with locals). But, more to the point, the raids are a form of harassment against business activity that the government, rightly or wrongly, wants to discourage.

However I DON'T understand the effectiveness of stopping obvious gringos on the street. We're only here to SPEND money and I suspect very very few of us are actually here illegally or beyond our tourist visas. Has ANY gringo ever been found to be genuinely here illegally as a result of a random stop on the street (as opposed to simply not having his passport copy with him)? I doubt there have been very many if any at all. Actually, like the raids on the HDR and the MP's, there is also an ulterior motive behind these random stops - pure and simple shakedowns for payoffs - and nothing else.

Similarly with the heightened rules for ex-pats. Part of it was long overdue enforcement of existing laws and updating of amounts to reflect current costs of living, just as ID has said. But I believe the changes in some areas went well beyond what was really necessary for that and reflect a growing resentment on the part of a significant element of the local population against these wealthy gringos who seem to be taking over their country.

Have a question... I'm flying from SJO to NYC on 5/18 and I'm over a year late. However, I'm in the process of residency and my lawyer has a document that I can use to get exemption. He says I can even get exemption on taxes or the $10 per day penalty and just pay exit tax.

First, I would like your thoughts on that??? When I got my fingerprints taken, the chica told me I could also just take the finger print receipt with me.

Second, do you have some advantage of getting your taxes paid before your flight at say... Banco Nacional??? If they are going to "shake me down" I'd rather have it happen in the Bank, than the airport.

Thoughts appreciated...

_________________
http://TipsCostaRica.com for pratical advice on living in Costa Rica.
In order to write about life, first you must live it! - E. Hemingway.

Chi,
I'm not a lawyer, although I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Most likely, ID can provide better informed thoughts than I. But, I won't let that stop me from offering a few reactions to what I just read.

1) Even though tico lawyers are not infallible, as VB and his friend can tell you, your lawyer probably could provide more reliable advice on this subject than anyone here. So I'd listen to him.

2) My guess is that if he says you can get exemptions on taxes or the $10 per day penalty and just pay exit tax then you probably can. The issue I think you're more concerned about is how much grief you'll have to go through explaining that to some low-level bureaucrat before he allows you to pass through.

3) Based on the assumption that might take some time or you might even initially be stymied, I think you probably SHOULD take care of the exit tax in advance rather than when you're in line on the day of your flight while trying to catch a plane.

4) I'm not sure about this but I believe the people at the airport are government employees thus maybe more likely to check for things like your immigration status. Bank employees are basically just acting as agents for the government. Even if they do catch the fact that you've overstayed your visa, are they as likely to turn you in or simply turn you away? To be honest, I don't really know, but I think you're odds of avoiding that sort of trouble might be greater at the bank. Probable worst case scenario is that they'll tell you that because your visa paperwork is expired, they can't issue you the exit stamp there and you'll have to go and speak to the government directly.

5) By all means, bring the fingerprint receipt and anything else you think might support your case. If nothing else, it couldn't hurt. And maybe the preponderance of such "circumstantial/tidbit" evidence might add up to enough to convince them to let you through.

6) VB's friend got caught on a flight going from Pavas to Liberia and seemed a little surprised that they caught that on a domestic flight. However, I think it might be possible they would actually be less likely to catch it on a flight OUT of the country or at least to make as big a deal about it since you're at least clearly trying to leave the country rather than continue to further overstay your visa.

However, like I've said before, I could be completely wrong about some or all of the above and just be talking out of my ass.

Priceless!!!

_________________
"You can only keep a secret between two people if the other one is dead." Ben Franklin

Thought my post count did not bother you.

Tirade, Try again. You obviously missed the point as usual. In all honesty I could care less about your post count,

So why keep bringing it up?

_________________
Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

I was told by my attorney and I know of others who were told by there attorneys that if you have a receipt from immigration with your file number showing that they have accepted your paperwork for residency you do not have to exit the country every 90 days.

Now if your 90 days expired prior to the date you filed your paperwork with immigration not sure what your status is.

_________________
Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

It appears this subject has been beaten to death so I will just comment on one small thing we disagree on.



Not sure who most people are but I do know the governments of the Central American countries do not consider Panama a CA country nor does the United States. That is why they were not included in CAFTA and why the U.S. is attempting to work out a separate trade deal with them.

_________________
Pura Vida
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four
essential food groups:
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.
Alex Levine

That is interesting and something I didn't know ID. Are we talking politally or geographically (probably wrong spellings) that they are not considered Central America? The things you learn on CRT. Never would have known that. oops, sorry, not trying to hijack. I have ADD and sometimes just respond to the last post.